I cannot wrap my brain around this mystery

[RGCheek]

I can’t wrap my brain around what you yourself are saying.
Are you saying that you are a moral worm and unworthy and a disgrace…because you would *not *send your child to be tortured and killed for other people’s sins?

Compared to these holy acts of God I realize that I am a moral worm as I could never allow my kids or wife to die for any number of people, even all humanity. Wouldn’t happen and I think that is wrong of me to feel that way, but it is what it is…

Especially because as a god, he could have chosen any of a zillion different ways for people to own up to whatever their bad behavior was and work thru whatever guilt they had.

But to send one’s own child to be tortured as a scapegoat?

Much like Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac in order to obey God because he loved and feared God that much, God so loves us that He would give His Son for us.

And Jesus was not a scape goat, which is merely a symbolic gesture. We have a debt to satisfy God’s justice to be sent to the fires of Hell because of our sin which damns us. Jesus could pay that debt and survive as He is eternal, while we are not.

It used to be a common practice to allow for people to pay the punishment of others if they wanted to. We still accept the payment of fines for a penalty regardless of who actually pays it, but we used to allow it for various forms of corporate punishment, conscription into the military and even incarceration if the person the penalty was earned could not endure the punishment and the healthier person could take their place. I seem to recall a story about a British navy proceeding where a young sailor broke some command and was going to get a large number of lashes that he could not survive due to effects of disease. The captain let another sailor who volunteered to take the whipping for him.

This is what Jesus did; He took the punishment we deserved and bears the scars for it.

You say it’s a “mystery” and I’d agree with you there.
It’s a mystery to me how crucifying your child makes up for other people’s sins.
How does it work?
It doesn’t seem very logical or loving, IMO.
.

It isn’t loving so much as Just and Holy to damn us for our sin, but accept a substitute instead who would survive the punishment.

But if Humanity depended on me to make such a sacrifice, I could never do it. Though I grasp the reasoning I cannot feel it in my heart to see my family members die.

God far surpasses any shred of morality we have. Which makes the contrast with those who try to damn God for the consequences of their own actions so hysterically absurd.

 

[RGCheek]

:tiphat:

I am the most humble fish in the sea! But I cannot wear buttons for obvious reasons.

 

[JamalChristophr]

:tiphat:

I did sort of steal your joke; now I must go do penance.

…off to chat with the lobsters. Pray for me.

 

[RGCheek]

I guess we see this much differently, is all.
I just can’t agree with you that it was a loving act for Abraham to almost murder his own child…and same goes for killing Jesus.
And, I must praise your heart and head for not being willing to do the same to those you love.

Thou shall not kill.

I would also have no respect for people who would let someone else–an innocent–take the fall and punishment for their own bad behavior.

Murder is the immoral act of killing a person. IF God commands it is by definition not immoral since God has the advantage of omniscience and foreknowledge to know what the best choices are. Besides all that, this life is not what we are made for. We are made for the eternal life, but some of us cant keep this in mind. When God ordered the extermination of the Amalekites He knew it was the best solution to that problem and that all the innocents among them would be in Heaven with Him anyway.

As to Abraham, it was a test and not intended to be carried out.

(Furthermore, if people are supposed to be joyous and grateful that God sent his child to be tortured and crucified…why, then, do they rarely praise Judas for his part? After all, he was following God’s plan to save humanity. He gave up his friend and his own life for it.)

It is consistent in the Bible for God to hate or despise the instrument by which He punishes those He loves.

I’m not understanding what you say about debt:

It is a debt of justice. Can you understand that a speeding ticket can be paid by anyone, and not just the perp?

God made us imperfect…he knows everything so he knew we would sin…he sets up the temptations and then, natch, we sin…then we are damned “to the fires of hell” for that sin he allowed and knew we’d do…

God did not make us imperfect. We did that to ourselves.

then to punish, he sends plagues and floods and starts wars et al…then he chooses to have his innocent child tortured and murdered to pay everyone’s incurred “debt” of that aforementioned sin…but that wasn’t enough, so then there is a set of rules to follow our entire lives to keep from the “fires of hell” forever…and then…and then…

To say that God sends punishment is more of a metaphor in most cases.

He ALLOWS things to happen that are the negative side of processes that bring us great advantages, like we get hurricanes by having an atmosphere. While I would like to not have hurricanes, it is better to have them and be able to breath than not.

My head is dizzy.
Doesn’t…make…sense…
.

It takes study and prayer to grasp the meaning of texts written thousands of years ago by an ancient pastoral people. It isn’t easy.