I challenge you to prove the existence of an inteligent cause on the basis of Evolutionary Theory

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Have any of you tried to create a Thomistic style proof of God on the foundation of evolutionary Theory?

Or do you know of any websites that try?

As you well know, if you have been reading my posts on evolution, i have been trying to argue for an Aristotelian final cause inference theory.
I would be interested to know if anybody else is philosophizing along those lines.

If you are not in agreement with the concept, please don’t be a hater and ridicule my project. Either kindly disagree, or just don’t post full stop.
 
A good “laymens” book that touches on this subject is one by Paul Davies, called “god and the new Physics”.

Keeping “intelligence” seperate from an eternal being that religioun try and describe, and using purely scientific endeavours raises some very interesting questions, that cannot currently be answered. Doesn’t mean they can’t be but he shows that the questions can and should be raised by science.

The name of your post however, claims a challenge and that’s a bit combative if you ask me.

Hope you get some more answers.
 
Hello,
I don’t think Thomistic arguments for the existence of God disappear if life began as it is taught by those who expound evolutionary theory. I am a biochemist and find no difficulty in
thinking about some of the evolution theories. Coacervates develop in an ancient mud to become a precursor to the cell. RNA polypeptides,DNA could have then developed in the chemical rich and reactive primordial ooze.Then likely in eons environmental pressures could have forced many changes in early structures including the ability to reproduce and to progress from unicellular to muticellular organisms etc…

Still,there had to be a “before” all these possible events occurred:either an infinite past never starting (Cause in itself) or a First Cause as Thomas argues. God could have created the animal world developing it in an evolutionary pattern.But Evolution theories are irrelevant as regards God’s existence and the Philosophical arguments positing that Existence.
In Carmel,Nickpeter
 
As you well know, if you have been reading my posts on evolution, i have been trying to argue for an Aristotelian final cause inference theory.
I would be interested to know if anybody else is philosophizing along those lines.
Dear MindOverMatter,

This is a sideways reply. If I were to look for a final cause inference theory location, I would check out the “bottleneck” which evolutionists say precludes Adam and Eve. My woman’s intuition says that the bottleneck process is more flexible, creative, and unpredictable than forecasted so that there is the possibility of Adam and Eve at that point. The evolutionary theory could be in place to produce Adam & Eve and then God would infuse their souls etc. However, one needs to be careful not to fall into the “god of the gaps” trap when examining current data.

One would have to recognize that the ability to receive a soul (instituting humanity) would have existed from the beginning in a specialized way. I am using “ability” as something other than matter. Ability could evolve. I’m not sure of the Thomistic connection to God. My guess would be that only God could cause something other than total matter, i.e., an ability totally different from other created things. Since nothing else in the universe has been able to create or evolve anything similar to a fully developed human, only an intelligent being could set in motion the ability to receive a soul or the development of intelligence, etc.

Question–would ability be considered an accident in the Thomistic sense? If so, it would have had to be created for a particular substance. Also, how does “form” work? Would one of the other "proofs’ then apply?

Thanks for listening,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
Hello,
Please let me add another thought on this issue.
Is it not conceivable that Adam and Eve were created in non-evoltionary time. Eden would have been a paradise in every sense of the word as long as the free will God gave to Adam and Eve
was used as God intented. After the Fall Adam and Eve ,in this view, would have been ejected into this Vale with its physical evils and a past filled with corruption and death for all creatures including some of the supposed precursors of modern man (Neanderthal man, Cromagnon man)

Have a Blesed Lent,
In Carmel, nickpeter
 
Hello,
Please let me add another thought on this issue.
Is it not conceivable that Adam and Eve were created in non-evoltionary time. Eden would have been a paradise in every sense of the word as long as the free will God gave to Adam and Eve
was used as God intented. After the Fall Adam and Eve ,in this view, would have been ejected into this Vale with its physical evils and a past filled with corruption and death for all creatures including some of the supposed precursors of modern man (Neanderthal man, Cromagnon man)

Have a Blesed Lent,
In Carmel, nickpeter
Fast answer to your first question – It is conceivable that Adam and Eve were created in non-evolutionary time.
 
Yes, MindOverMatter, I think I know of a website that does this.

However, I do not understand what is meant by “Aristotelian final cause inference theory”

From the Adler Archive at the Radical Academy:
radicalacademy.com/adlerphilofeducation3.htm Bottom half of this page.
radicalacademy.com/adlerphilofeducation4.htm Top half of this page
radicalacademy.com/adleranimalists.htm An older essay than the above, but has more detail on Adler’s argument.

Mortimer Adler (1902-2001) was an Aristotelian/Thomist philosopher. However, he converted to Catholicism at the age of 96 and thus wrote many books that were Aristotelian and Thomist without being fully Catholic.

Here is a sample:
Darwin argues, if man descended with the anthropoid apes from a common ancestral form, with modification through descent and the extinction of intermediate varieties, this can be proved by demonstrating that man now differs in degree, and degree only, from apes or higher mammals…I think I can show that the evidence of observation makes it much more probable that man differs from the brute in kind rather than in degree…if man is by nature rational and free, and essentially distinct from the brute, then he is specially created by God…If we conclude from the evidence that the nature of man is this, we are led from that evidence to the theological hypothesis of creation…at a certain point in the natural formation of the human body through descent and modification, the infusion of a rational soul marked the instant of man’s existence on earth.
Let me know if this is what you had in mind.
 
Re: I challenge you to prove the existence of an intelligent cause on the basis of Evolutionary Theory.

**~~~~~~~~**

Nothing comes from nothing.

**~~~~~~~~**
 
The history of man falls on the 31 first day of December in terms of a year long timeline. Many many things had to happened along a long chain of random events. If any one of these digressed we would not be here having this conversation. The odds are astronomical that it happened by chance alone. Man is an intelligent project guided along by our Creator.

Evolutionary theory cannot account for it. The EES says as much. There is more happening here than just small incremental steps over a long period of time. Now they know it and are trying to deal with it. The EES is grappling at self organization to deal with saltations.

So Darwinism by itself cannot even account for life.
 
Evolution theory remains just that a theory.But I see no reason to put events that may have occurred,if this theory has a basis of validity,as chance or random events.God may have chosen this pathway in creation and every event leading to Man would have been directed by Him.
The earth has been around for 5 billion years( for God,one day).
Why should we call any event which may have led from a primordial cell to man as random even if environmental selective pressures were involved in these events?
 
Evolution theory remains just that a theory.
Perhaps you should look up what “theory” means in science. If you knew, you wouldn’t say “just a theory.”
 
Dear Barbarian, it would more helpful if you explained what you meant by your response to the person who made the comment “just a theory”.

Am I correct in assuming that you mean that all scientific “laws” are laws in the sense that they stood the test of time and have shown themselves to be useful in explaining certain observable phenomena, but they are not absolute truth? They are simply theories or hypotheses that have not been disproven by repeated experiments.
 
Dear Barbarian, it would more helpful if you explained what you meant by your response to the person who made the comment “just a theory”.
OK.
Am I correct in assuming that you mean that all scientific “laws” are laws in the sense that they stood the test of time and have shown themselves to be useful in explaining certain observable phenomena, but they are not absolute truth?
Yes. But laws are not theories. They are almost as certain as theories, in that they are statements of what will happen under given circumstances. But unlike theories, they don’t explain why it happens. So they are slightly weaker statements than theories.
They are simply theories or hypotheses that have not been disproven by repeated experiments.
Science is inductive; it works by assembling evidence to support hypotheses. When there is enough evidence, the matter is considered settled and the hypothesis is considered to be a theory. This is always provisional on new information, however.

It might sound a bit uncertain to you, but I can only point out that it has been spectacularly successful in explaining the universe, and incidentally, in providing useful information.
 
The history of man falls on the 31 first day of December in terms of a year long timeline. Many many things had to happened along a long chain of random events. If any one of these digressed we would not be here having this conversation.
Even going back no farther than your great-grandparents, a great many highly unlikely random events had to happen to result in you being here to have the conversation. The odds are astronomical that it happened by chance alone.

And yet here you are. I have no doubt God intended you. Perhaps you could take a hint from the Church on this point:

**Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). **
Cardinal Ratzinger, Communion and Stewardship
Report of the International Theological Commission #69
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html
So Darwinism by itself cannot even account for life.
As you’ve been so often reminded, it does not intend to. It assumes living things, and explains how they change over time. You might as well rail against chemistry for not saying how matter originated.
 
As you’ve been so often reminded, it does not intend to. It assumes living things, and explains how they change over time. You might as well rail against chemistry for not saying how matter originated.
My memory, so faulty at times, tells me that the theory of evolution begins with chemicals(?) forming the first cell singular. But that sounds too simplistic especially when the above uses living things in the plural.

This is from my imagination. If there were a variety of components that were capable of being nudged into life, there could be a variety of ways, the components could be arranged even including some, excluding others. Thus, there could be a variety of first cells, or a variety of first common ancestors.

Now my imagination skips to another discussion in which the word deception was used in that if human beings were created separately, the fact that we share genomes with other animals would be God’s way of deceiving us. One of the first things I learned in P.R. is how to interpret the same fact six ways to Sunday. So, let’s say that this idea of deception is only one of possible interpretations. Let’s look at the similar genomes as well as similar functions as examples of how we are in union with the rest of creation.

If the “unity” of creation is part of Thomistic thought, this might be a way of using it as evidence of an intelligent cause. Somewhere I read that unity, beauty are spiritual ways to find God.

God’s creation is a unit in which all things connect in some way.
Evidence is interdisciplinary search for knowledge. Also, there is a Thomistic concept that created things can exist or not exist. Theologically speaking, is God considered one being?

As far as unity, God’s creation of natural life such as polar bears, slugs, and dinosaurs does not present a problem since they are intrinsically part of the universe. Humanity presents a problem in that God created us to be with Him forever. Thus, we needed to have a supernatural nature, in other words, there is something about our being that is totally different from the rest of life. This idea can work in reverse in that it is observable that we are very different from the rest of life; therefore, our nature includes supernatural or spiritual.

If humanity were totally different from the rest of life, i.e., the first cell or first common ancestor was of material singularly and totally different from everything else, the unity of the creation would disappear from our observation. Let’s not get into the discussion that God can do anything. Let’s stick with the Thomistic idea that humanity observes nature in order to find its cause.

We share a lot with other animals in that we eat, sleep and love the opposite sex. Furthermore we use nature, water, plants, animals as nourishment. All this shows that we are not aliens but that our being is related to the rest of the world. It is reasonable to say that we come from the same created material as the universe. Didn’t some writer say that humans were formed from “clay” which could be a figurative, literal, or poetic source word indicating the unity of creation by one Intelligent Cause?

Now, please return to the top of this post – and consider the first origins of life. As long as TOE does not intend to treat the “origin” of life, we are perfectly free to give a reasonable theory for it. Personally, I like the idea of first cells or first common ancestors getting together. It demonstrates the huge intelligence of the Creator. Here is my imaginative scenario. At the very beginning of life, a particular combination was given the ability to accept a soul. The operative word is ability. It is this ability which distinguishes it from the rest of life. This ability is a key to the differences between humans and animals today. Thus, we can work backwards from the observable differences to conclude that something, I use the word ability, existed from the beginning. Maybe a scientist would call it suppressed genes.

This something, ability, suppressed genes, spiritual component indicates that the actual procreation of the early humans can be different from the rest of nature while retaining the similarities because of the principle of unity. The obvious question is that if early humans procreated in a different way, why did that rate change? The answer is in current biological
studies on genetic shift, founder effect, traumatic changes of environment, chance, natural selection, etc. which demonstrate various ways and reasons for mutation of genes, etc. Maybe there was planned obsolescence. Also from current evolutionary biology studies, when one looks at certain birds or reptiles, one should remember that their ancestors were dinosaurs.

Perhaps the above can help you in your OP search. The point would be that unity, which includes both evolutionary progress and the non-physical soul, would lead to an extremely Intelligent Being, one not limited by created matter so that it can be the First cause of both the natural and the supernatural.

Blessings,
granny

The universe and all humanity are a joy to behold.
 
Excellent, thank you for explaining the nuance between a scientific theory and a law.
 
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