I CORINTHIANS 1:23..why is it so?

[djeter]

*But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.*I CORINTHIANS 1:23

Ever ask yourself why is it that Paul describes the gospel as a folly and a scandal and that worldly wisdom feels so repelled by it?

Emile Brunner, one of the leading Protestant theologians of the 20th century provides a complete answer in this short essay.

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/02/03/the-divine-scandal-emil-brunner/

dj

 

[Garyjohn2]

I think this verse is fairly straightforward. The “stumbling block” and “folly” means it is a hard teaching.

It’s difficult for Jews to understand the MESSIAH, the annointed one fortold by prophets and sent by God, to being executed by romans. How can this be possible? It’s a stumbling block to them. Difficult to accept.

Same thing for Gentiles. How can the saviour of the world, God on earth, be tortured and killed in the *most humiliating *manner available at the time? It’s folly…foolishness to them.

There ya go…I didn’t even need an essay.

 

[Big_Ro]

I think this verse is fairly straightforward. The “stumbling block” and “folly” means it is a hard teaching.

It’s difficult for Jews to understand the MESSIAH, the annointed one fortold by prophets and sent by God, to being executed by romans. How can this be possible? It’s a stumbling block to them. Difficult to accept.

Same thing for Gentiles. How can the saviour of the world, God on earth, be tortured and killed in the *most humiliating *manner available at the time? It’s folly…foolishness.

There ya go…I didn’t even need an essay.

I think you got it right. If I may add: the Jews of Christ’s time and indeed until this very day expected The Christ to be more of a political or military leader. The Jews of Christ’s time emphasised (sp?) the military part. They were struggling under the yoke of Roman oppression, so it’s probably understandable that they expected a leader that would expel the Romans from their land. In short, they expected a Christ that would come and establish a worldly Kingdom. As we now know, the mission of Christ was to establish a Kingdom in Heaven.

I can’t add very much to the gentile part except to say that they understood with a worldly mind. We, in the Faith, understand with a Godly mind. I am not a material creature having a spiritual experience. I am a spiritual being having a material experience.

 

[ryanoneil]

Crucifixion was a sign of disgrace and defeat for its victims, and it was connected with the curse of God in (Deut 21:22-23). Yet Christ’s crucifixion was the means of our salvation because he rose and blessed us with new life.

 

[Big_Ro]

Crucifixion was a sign of disgrace and defeat for its victims, and it was connected with the curse of God in (Deut 21:22-23). Yet Christ’s crucifixion was the means of our salvation because he rose and blessed us with new life.

I’m not disagreeing with you, but my limited understanding of Roman history also tells me that crucifixion was particlualry reserved for politcal dissidents. I think scripture establishes firmly that Christ did not hold himself out as a political leader. Politics is strictly a worldly endeavor. I think the passage about Christ being handed a coin in which he responds “render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars…” clearly confirms his non-political aims. The scribes, et al, that sought to put Christ to death were, IMHO, mainly concerned with their political and social standing. Indeed, the fact that the Romans chose crucifixion as a manner of execution and that we now hold dear to that as a central part of our faith is powerful. It testifies to God’s wisdom.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m not disagreeing with you, but my limited understanding of Roman history also tells me that crucifixion was particlualry reserved for politcal dissidents. I think scripture establishes firmly that Christ did not hold himself out as a political leader. Politics is strictly a worldly endeavor. I think the passage about Christ being handed a coin in which he responds “render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars…” clearly confirms his non-political aims. The scribes, et al, that sought to put Christ to death were, IMHO, mainly concerned with their political and social standing. Indeed, the fact that the Romans chose crucifixion as a manner of execution and that we now hold dear to that as a central part of our faith is powerful. It testifies to God’s wisdom.

I agree with you in terms of being a military king on earth. He claimed to be the New Law maker though.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mt 5:17-20)

And he would ascend to rule the whole world from his heavenly throne.

But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mt 26:63-64)

 

[Big_Ro]

I agree with you in terms of being a military king on earth. He claimed to be the New Law maker though.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mt 5:17-20)

And he would ascend to rule the whole world from his heavenly throne.

But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mt 26:63-64)

Hmmm? Yes indeed. He and his mission are the fullfillment of the Law. I’m not sure if I’m missing the point of your post. Or if your just enjoying the power of these passages.

 

[Ferds_Guiang]

I believe preaching the Crucified Christ is a stumbling block then and even now because there is a paradox in that suffering became the way/means to glory. And this could be foolishness to a person who thinks that suffering has very little or no value at all and should be totally eliminated. But I believe St. Paul recommends that the just like our Crucified Lord who in all His power and majesty could have avoided this humiliation but chose not to, then we His followers must learn to accept the Cross and endure our sufferings.

 

[djeter]

I think this verse is fairly straightforward. The “stumbling block” and “folly” means it is a hard teaching.

There ya go…I didn’t even need an essay.

Guess I’m the fool then. Here I thought doing a little reading, some scriptural exegesis, would be a benefit in some way. Live and learn.

dj

 

[ryanoneil]

Hmmm? Yes indeed. He and his mission are the fullfillment of the Law. I’m not sure if I’m missing the point of your post. Or if your just enjoying the power of these passages.

I guess I was agreeing with the spirit of your #5 post. Jesus didn’t have designs to rule from an earthly throne, but his heavenly politics directly affect earthly politics. Fulfilling the Law has huge political implications. And Jesus is saying (in Mt 26:64) that I am going to politically (and personally) destroy you from my throne in heaven.

****As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: "Rule over your enemies! (Psalm 110:1-2)****

 

[Big_Ro]

I guess I was agreeing with the spirit of your #5 post. Jesus didn’t have designs to rule from an earthly throne, but his heavenly politics directly affect earthly politics. Fulfilling the Law has huge political implications. And Jesus is saying (in Mt 26:64) that I am going to politically (and personally) destroy you from my throne in heaven.

****As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: "Rule over your enemies! (Psalm 110:1-2)****

Yes, yes. I agree. Christ’s mission, from the perspective of the Jewish leadership, was a direct threat to the political power and position that the they held with respect to Rome. I don’t think we can truly understand the actions taken by the Jewish power structure which leads to Christs crucifixion unless we understand the realtionship that they had witht their Roman oppressors. The fact that they chose crucufixion speaks volumes to that. I think we’re having a nice conversation and I don’t want to spoil it or seem to be picking a fight. And, I may be reading something in to your last post that is not there, so I apologize in advance.

I do not agree that it is the mission or message of Christ to establish what would essentially be a theocracy on earth. God intends to rule from within our hearts. Yes, indeed, if more of our leaders–political, bureaucratic, community, etc-- would conduct themselves with a Christian heart, the world would be a better place. I absolutely believe in a seperation of Church and State. I agree and have faith in the revelation. In the end, all will pass except the rule of God. All our earthly constructs–political, institutional, social, etc–will be put asunder. In this I have no doubt. I believe that is the work of God, not man.

Thank you for your thought provoking posts and the repectful way you go about making your point. I hope I have reciprocated.

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes, yes. I agree. Christ’s mission, from the perspective of the Jewish leadership, was a direct threat to the political power and position that the they held with respect to Rome. I don’t think we can truly understand the actions taken by the Jewish power structure which leads to Christs crucifixion unless we understand the realtionship that they had witht their Roman oppressors. The fact that they chose crucufixion speaks volumes to that. I think we’re having a nice conversation and I don’t want to spoil it or seem to be picking a fight. And, I may be reading something in to your last post that is not there, so I apologize in advance.

I do not agree that it is the mission or message of Christ to establish what would essentially be a theocracy on earth. God intends to rule from within our hearts. Yes, indeed, if more of our leaders–political, bureaucratic, community, etc-- would conduct themselves with a Christian heart, the world would be a better place. I absolutely believe in a seperation of Church and State. I agree and have faith in the revelation. In the end, all will pass except the rule of God. All our earthly constructs–political, institutional, social, etc–will be put asunder. In this I have no doubt. I believe that is the work of God, not man.

Thank you for your thought provoking posts and the repectful way you go about making your point. I hope I have reciprocated.

I agree about no theocracy and seperation of Church and State. I agree with God ruling from within our hearts. There is the issue of earthly leadership in spiritual issues but we don’t have to go there. I don’t want to pick a fight either.

I like what you were saying about paying taxes to Ceasar and Jesus not being a political leader. Do think Jesus was “playing politics” though (so to speak)? I do! The Pharisees and Herodians were collaborating to trap him politically so they could eliminate him, but Jesus turned the tables on them.

 

[Big_Ro]

Oh, I think you’re dead on about the trap and the political gamesmanship of Christ. While, IMHO, Christ was not interested in their petty political concerns, he was surely aware of the politically charged nature of his actions. He had to be keenly aware that he posed a serious threat to their political power base and that would be the catalyst for his death. I either saw a documentary or maybe I read somewhere (I’m getting older so things get a little jumbled) something about this issue. It seems that there was great controversy at the time about whether or not Jews should continue to pay the Roman tax. The Romans for their part were happy to allow the the Jewish leadership a great deal of autonomy so long as they collected and paid the taxes. If they stopped paying the tax or were seen by the Romans as incapable of effectively collecting the tax, the Romans might step in and thus the power of the Jewish heiarchy would be removed. Of course, the paying of taxes was wildly unpopular (some things never change). So, the jewish leadership was walking a fine line balancing their lust for power while appearing to be on the people’s side. Christ brought this in to full view. There are several passages that point to the anger illicited when Christ upset this balance. This goes back to the original post. His teaching was a stumbling block and folly for the Jews because it’s so hard to understand with a spiritual mind and let go of our worldly desires and worries. We must lose our lives in the world that we may gain true life. I’m really enjoying this exchange. Thanks.

 

[Aquinas29]

As I understand it, the message of Christianity is truly counter cultural. In the eyes of the world, a “successful” life is measured by the acquisition of honors and money. “Those who die with the most toys win” (Wins what? They don’t say). Christ taught that there are others more important than yourself, that true love is emptying yourself of your pride and reaching out to others. The world worships the ego, especially modern man, where narcissism is an honest value. Paul only points out that in the eyes of the world, a Christian is a fool.

A good example of this is the recent episode of Oprah, where she interviews some Dominican nuns. It was obvious this wealthy, worldly woman truly did not understand where the nuns were coming from. She could not understand that they willingly turned their backs on the static of the world and sought God in the silence of the cloister. Lisa Ling, on the other hand, seemed to understand a little more, and was very respctful of the sisters. Oprah wasn’t hostile to the nuns - you tell my theslack jawed expression she was at a loss to relate to these people. And not one, not once, did she say the name Jesus.

 

[Big_Ro]

As I understand it, the message of Christianity is truly counter cultural. In the eyes of the world, a “successful” life is measured by the acquisition of honors and money. “Those who die with the most toys win” (Wins what? They don’t say). Christ taught that there are others more important than yourself, that true love is emptying yourself of your pride and reaching out to others. The world worships the ego, especially modern man, where narcissism is an honest value. Paul only points out that in the eyes of the world, a Christian is a fool.

A good example of this is the recent episode of Oprah, where she interviews some Dominican nuns. It was obvious this wealthy, worldly woman truly did not understand where the nuns were coming from. She could not understand that they willingly turned their backs on the static of the world and sought God in the silence of the cloister. Lisa Ling, on the other hand, seemed to understand a little more, and was very respctful of the sisters. Oprah wasn’t hostile to the nuns - you tell my theslack jawed expression she was at a loss to relate to these people. And not one, not once, did she say the name Jesus.

You said a mouthful there my friend. The world decieves us into worldly desire and worry. I like your take on the too often used saying about toys. Here’s another one: What good is it to win the Rat Race? You’re still a rat! They also say that nice guys finish last. Maybe they’re running in a different race.

I am not a big fan of Oprah. She seems, to me, to be a religion unto herself. My wife watches her all the time. I give her a hard time about it. Mostly good natured ribbing, but she knows how I feel. I’m not surprised by her reaction although I did not see the episode. I’m reminded of the passage where a young man approached Christ and asks him he must do to gain salvation. He tells him to get rid of all his possessions. He goes away sad. It’s so hard to let go of this world. I think I’m pretty good about not coveting material possessions, but I worry constantly about my families finances. We’ve been going thru a very tough couple of years. I know it’s a sin to worry the way I do, but while my spirit is willing, the flesh is weak. [big sigh].

 

[ryanoneil]

Oh, I think you’re dead on about the trap and the political gamesmanship of Christ. While, IMHO, Christ was not interested in their petty political concerns, he was surely aware of the politically charged nature of his actions. He had to be keenly aware that he posed a serious threat to their political power base and that would be the catalyst for his death. I either saw a documentary or maybe I read somewhere (I’m getting older so things get a little jumbled) something about this issue. It seems that there was great controversy at the time about whether or not Jews should continue to pay the Roman tax. The Romans for their part were happy to allow the the Jewish leadership a great deal of autonomy so long as they collected and paid the taxes. If they stopped paying the tax or were seen by the Romans as incapable of effectively collecting the tax, the Romans might step in and thus the power of the Jewish heiarchy would be removed. Of course, the paying of taxes was wildly unpopular (some things never change). So, the jewish leadership was walking a fine line balancing their lust for power while appearing to be on the people’s side. Christ brought this in to full view. There are several passages that point to the anger illicited when Christ upset this balance. This goes back to the original post. His teaching was a stumbling block and folly for the Jews because it’s so hard to understand with a spiritual mind and let go of our worldly desires and worries. We must lose our lives in the world that we may gain true life. I’m really enjoying this exchange. Thanks.

Yes, great exchange! This is a topic I’ve been thinking more of lately. The Pharisees (religious seperatists) and Herodians (supporters of Roman rule) have opposite political views but they collaborate against Jesus. If Jesus opposed the tax, the Herodians could charge Jesus with treason for instigating a tax revolt. If Jesus approved of it, the Pharisees would charge him as unfaithful to Judaism and it hopes of national independence. Jesus evades them both. Ceasar’s coins could be given back to him in taxes without religious compromise, because they are his rightful property. And the tax is a result of their own sins. If Israel had been giving God his due, they would not have been subject of Roman rule.

Remember, Jesus had just got done telling them this.

Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; by the Lord has this been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes’? Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit. The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him, they feared the crowds, for they regarded him as a prophet. (Mt 21:42-46)

And Rome was the people God used to carry out his judgment.

 

[Big_Ro]

That’s very very interesting. I feel like I have a good handle on the tax issue and why they chose to test Jesus this way. I studied political science and have always felt that because I understand to some extent the political backdrop that existed during the ministry of Christ. I better understand the actions of the Jews. It seems obvious that they would react the way they did. It also makes Christs actions so much more powerful He had to have known the impact that his words and actions would have on their psychy. He had to know the tremendous threat that his preaching posed and that they would have no choice but to move against it. I think it was beyond a “death he freely accepted” and a death he actively sought. I am humbled by his willing sacrifice and consider myself, while unworthy, so much more fortunate to benefit from it.

However, I have always taken the particular part of scripture that you quote to be referring to the Gentiles. Rather, that he would take the gift that was meant for and promised to the Jews, his chosen, and give it to the Gentiles. Am I wrong in thinking that the Church we inherit today is a Church of Gentiles, for Gentiles and by Gentiles?

 

[ryanoneil]

That’s very very interesting. I feel like I have a good handle on the tax issue and why they chose to test Jesus this way. I studied political science and have always felt that because I understand to some extent the political backdrop that existed during the ministry of Christ. I better understand the actions of the Jews. It seems obvious that they would react the way they did. It also makes Christs actions so much more powerful He had to have known the impact that his words and actions would have on their psychy. He had to know the tremendous threat that his preaching posed and that they would have no choice but to move against it. I think it was beyond a “death he freely accepted” and a death he actively sought. I am humbled by his willing sacrifice and consider myself, while unworthy, so much more fortunate to benefit from it.

However, I have always taken the particular part of scripture that you quote to be referring to the Gentiles. Rather, that he would take the gift that was meant for and promised to the Jews, his chosen, and give it to the Gentiles. Am I wrong in thinking that the Church we inherit today is a Church of Gentiles, for Gentiles and by Gentiles?

Your wrong if you exclude the Jews. The leaders of the Old Covenant establishment were “wicked tenants” and the kingdom was given over to the shepherds of the New Covenant Church. All them were Jews.

It is you who have stood by me in my trials; and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Lk 22: 28-30)

And they invited the Gentiles, but not to the exclusion of Israel. If you read the parable of the wedding banquet (Mt 22:1-14), you see that God is calling Jews and Gentiles. He rewards and punishes on the basis of their acceptance of rejection of his call. When Jesus died on the cross, Jesus bore the curses of Israel enabling the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant to pour on Israel AND the rest of the world.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:28-29)