I don't think Christianity is proven by reason!

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Questioning_1

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I can’t see God, hear God or taste God.

Can you please prove God to me?

I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.

Can you help!?!?!?!?
 
The Existence of God

The topic will be treated as follows:

I. As Known Through Natural Reason
A. The Problem Stated
  1. Formal Anti-Theism
  2. Types of Theism
B. Theistic Proofs
  1. A Posteriori Argument
    (a) The general causality argument
    (b) The argument from design
    (c) The argument from conscience
    (d) The argument from universal consent
  2. A Priori, or Ontological, Argument
II. As Known Through Faith
A. Sacred Scriptures
B. Church Councils
C. The Knowability of God
 
buffalo said:
The Existence of God

The topic will be treated as follows:
I. As Known Through Natural Reason
  • A. The Problem Stated
    1. Formal Anti-Theism
  1. Types of Theism
B. Theistic Proofs
    1. A Posteriori Argument
  • (a) The general causality argument
    (b) The argument from design
    (c) The argument from conscience
    (d) The argument from universal consent
  1. A Priori, or Ontological, Argument
II. As Known Through Faith
  • A. Sacred Scriptures
    B. Church Councils
    C. The Knowability of God
Click to expand...

When do we discuss the historical proofs?
 
Questioning?:
I can’t see God, hear God or taste God.

Can you please prove God to me?

I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.

Can you help!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...
So why do you care? What’s with all the extra punctuation marks? Why start a thread about God if you don’t believe in Him?

Reason - Because within you (and every other human) is a desire for God.
Just as desire (hunger) for food proclaims the existence of food, desire for God proclaims the existence of God. How can you be hungry for something that doesn’t exist?

Now look to your conscience. What the heck is that doing there? Why do you have a sense of right and wrong? Other animals don’t have morals, because morals would make them less efficient. People have morals. This is because God has given us a conscience to help us to know His will.

I mean, look at the martyrs. They died for their faith. In all other animals the instinct for survival of self and species is higher than all other callings. In humans there is something stronger than survival.

There you go, 2 things within you which you know are there which back up God.

Now look to the universe. How did that get there? Big bang from the first tiny particle? How did the first tiny particle get there? The universe works on cause and effect, but there has to be a first cause, an uncaused cause, and that is God. Where did the universe get its energy from, its order? If the universe had existed forever then it would all be a constant temperature by now and life would be impossible (due to 2nd law of Thermodynamics). No, there must be a universal energiser, a universal orderer, and that is God.

I’m sure there’s a lot more to it than this but yea, basically I reckon we have got lots of very good reasons for believing in God.
 
Premise: Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

1.)The Universe began to exist.
2.) The Universe has a cause.

Either the Universe and everything in it, existed from eternity past(which we know is not true), or there was a time when the universe did not exist. If there was a time when the Unievrse did not exist then something had to bring it into existence. Nothing can cause itself. From nothing comes nothing.

So there is a Cause which transcends this Universe of Space and Time. What are some other attributes we can deduce? This cause must be immensley and uncomprehensibly powerful, brilliant, creative, timeless, incorruptible,and so on ad infinitum. Humor me for the sake of reflection and let us call this Cause “God.”

So we can deduce just from the natural order that there is a generic “God” with certain attributes. I make the following proposal: Unless God has revealed Himself to man, in a way that only He could, then Man would be justified in believing or not believing/doing or not doing, anything he so pleases. However, what if God has revealed Himself to man in a way that only He could? What if God became a Man?

If you go to Grand Central Station in NYC, you may find a schitzophrenic with a divinity complex and delusions of Grandeur, claiming to be God. Most of us would shrug this man off and dismiss him as a lunatic. What if the man did not seem insane?Rather, suppose this man claimed to be God and then spoke some of the most profound words you had ever heard, truths you had never heard anywhere else? What if the man did “signs and wonders”, not like those of a magician, but truley awe inspiring things like healing people of their woes and maladies? Might you start to wonder if maybe this man were telling the truth?

Acts 2:22
22"People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing wonderful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know.
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Why is reason the highest virtue? What does it even mean for something to be the “highest virtue”? What standards are you using, and where did they come from, and how do you know they are true standards?

You might want to read about the proofs of God on Peter Kreeft’s Website
 
Questioning?:
I can’t see God, hear God or taste God.

Can you please prove God to me?

I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.

Can you help!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...
No, I cannot prove God to you. Nor ought I. Ask Him, in all sincerity, to reveal Himself to you, and He will. 🙂

As for reason being the highest virtue, let me take that as face value. Are you reasonable? Are you *the most * reasonable person?

If you are honest, you probably said, “I think so” and “No” to the above questions.

Who is the most reasonable person? If we knew, we ought to seek that person’s opinion on God, no? But how do we know who is the most reasonable? That determination would require a level of reason that we ourselves do not have. We’re smart enough to know we’re not smart enough, but we’re not smart enough to know who is.

Reason can take you no further than that.

But let me quote Blaise Pascal (an eminently reasonable mathemetician) for you: “The heart has its reasons, which the reason knows nothing of.”

My prayer is that you discover those reasons, and come to God like I did, as a prodigal.

He will accept and love you. That’s who He is.
 
Questioning?:
I can’t see God, hear God or taste God.

Can you please prove God to me?

I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.

Can you help!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...
Questioning,

Strictly speaking, no, I can’t prove God to you. But then, I can’t prove to you that I exist either; all that you know of me is some typing on your computer screen. And you can’t prove most of history either: we have very little evidence for the Battle of Tours, for example. And you can’t prove anything scientifically; there is no logical proof that hydrogen and oxygen will combine to form water tomorrow, even though chemists have seen the phenomenon countless times in the past. But I can give you some pointers:

(1) The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are the best-documented events in all of history from more than about a thousand years ago. The Gospels are unparalleled in terms of the number, antiquity, and quality of texts from the ancient world.

(2) Jesus founded the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church (or the Orthodox Church, which split with it a thousand years ago) is the only institution from Jesus’ day that can trace its history in an unbroken succession down to the present.

(3) Jesus’ burial shroud is kept in a church in Turin, Italy. It has an image of a crucified man burned into the fibers.

(4) From time to time, God has seen fit to suspend the laws of nature in a very public way. The miracle of the sun at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 is an example of this. It was predicted months in advance, seen by some 72,000 witnesses (including skeptics who had shown up specifically to debunk it), and reported in the day’s newspapers.

There’s more–a lot more–but I have given you the first few that come off the top of my head.
  • Liberian
 
Questioning?:
I just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.
Click to expand...
Quite frankly, there is every reason to believe in God and Christianity and the CC claim to be the Church founded by Christ.

On the other hand, it is unreasonable to believe there is no God.
 
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Liberian:
Questioning,
(4) From time to time, God has seen fit to suspend the laws of nature in a very public way. The miracle of the sun at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 is an example of this. It was predicted months in advance, seen by some 72,000 witnesses (including skeptics who had shown up specifically to debunk it), and reported in the day’s newspapers.
  • Liberian
Click to expand...
If I was present at Fatima in 1917 and witnessed this, I would convert on the spot, give away all my possessions and become a missionary or religious.

Alas, I was not there. Still, to my mind this would be the best “proof”. It occured within living memory and was seen by thousands in different locations. As far as I know, no one who witnessed this has ever recanted.
 
Where has the OP gone? He started the thread and has disappeared!
 
Questioning?:
I can’t see God, hear God or taste God.

Can you please prove God to me?

I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.

Can you help!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...
Seeing, hearing, or tasting God are not faculties of reason. They are our senses. Sadly, you seem to have succumbed to empiricism…the belief that truth can only be known through use of our physical senses. Read Peter Kreeft’s refutation of Moral Relativism. I know you’re thinking that that’s an entirely different topic, but just check it out, it’s kind of a beginner’s philosophy book as well.
 
Questioning?:
I can’t see God, hear God or taste God.

Can you please prove God to me?

I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.

Can you help!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...
There have been many man-made philosophies that have taken hold of a country or continent before. They eventually fail. There have been many empires that ruled almost the entire world before. They have all fallen. There have been many governments, politics, armies, barbarians, even avenues of reason that sought to benefit the world before. Some benefits occured, but most of what they promised was either false or was wiped-out by succeeding madmen.

Yet, for 2,000 years there has been an institution known as the Roman Catholic Church. No current military force, no real political power, limited wealth. This institution promotes Christ, education, and health care. The result? The benefits have been remarkable, incredible strides in medicine, universities, establishment of countries over roaming barbarian tribes, and most of all, a 2,000 year history of adhering to a stable truth through a faith in the source of all truth which is Jesus.

Have you not noticed that the Muslim countries are generally very backward and are cursed with terrorism? Have you not noticed that the countries that have produced the best minds and the greatest advancements are Christian countries?

Has the world simply gotten lucky through the church? Or, has the world become 'blessed" through the church?

If the later, who is the one who has the power to bless to the point that man can overcome his own limitations? This source of truth and blessing is God.

If you study the history of humankind, it is unreasonable to presume man has done as well as he has in the “Christain” era all by himself.

Thal59
 
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thistle:
Where has the OP gone? He started the thread and has disappeared!
Click to expand...
Perhaps he got so many answers he’s not “Questioning?” any more.
  • Liberian
 
Questioning?:
I believe reason is the highest virtue, i just don’t think believing in God is reasonable.
Click to expand...
Other’s have said that belief in God is unreasonable. Some point to muslim extremists today to prove their point. The more favored target is the historic catholic chuch most notably the inquisitions and the crusades (notice that they have to go back hundreds of years to find events that can be criticized).

But what happens when you elevate reason above belief in God? Marx said “Religion is the opiate of the people.” He went on to say, “The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.”

So what happened when his ideas were used? Russia 20 million killed, China 100 million. Cuba ??, North Korea???

The philosophy that tried to replace religious belief with reason is responsible for more deaths than all religious wars combined.
 
faith is suprarational…it is above reason. but faith can not be in discord with reason. This is why reason can be a powerful ally in sharing and defending our Faith.

In the words of Josh McDowell
My heart can not rejoice in what my mind rejects.
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