I don't understand Traditionalism and its hurting my marriage

[nute]

I apologize for being negative on the society of Saint Peter or the Tridintine Mass.

This Mass could be celebrated by permission only for a while, but that isn’t true anymore.

Still, a valid Mass is a valid Mass regardless of whether it is said in the Vernacular or in Latin.

Valid refers to the priests being priests where licit refers to whether or not Rome permits the particular mass. A Mass can be valid but illicit. If a mass is illicit, Rome has a reason for not allowing it and Rome’s judgement deserves our respect.

I stand by my comment that there are no traditionalists and non traditionalists, just Catholics and non Catholics. Being a frequent adherent to the Tridintine Mass doesn’t make you a better Catholic than someone who is a frequent adherent to the archdiocesan Mass in the vernacular.

 

[bonvivantHermit]

I responded the way I did b/c she said her husband was or had been a Sedevacantist. That’s a cult, in my mind, when you want to join a cult- you are controlling and/or confused/disordered. Additionally, she stated he, husband, disregarded the parish priest and insisted on attending the parish of his choice. Maybe the parish priest was wrong, but to outright reject the priest, w/o discussion/prayer etc., and insist on his way seemed controlling,

 

[floresco]

I responded the way I did b/c she said her husband was or had been a Sedevacantist. That’s a cult, in my mind, when you want to join a cult- you are controlling and/or confused/disordered. Additionally, she stated he, husband, disregarded the parish priest and insisted on attending the parish of his choice. Maybe the parish priest was wrong, but to outright reject the priest, w/o discussion/prayer etc., and insist on his way seemed controlling,

She did not state that her husband had disregarded the priest. She said that her parish priest had told her not to go. We do not know that her husband was aware of this. If he was aware we do not know there was no discussion/prayer about it. She did not say anything about her husband insisting on his way. On the contrary, she has described various attempts at compromise that they have tried. You jumped to conclusions and your comments were not helpful.

I am disappointed in this thread. I know this is normal for forum discussions, but so many posts in this thread have been from people jumping to conclusions or riding their own hobby horses rather than addressing the concerns of the OP. I suppose it is bothering me especially this time because I have been in a similar situation to hers and know how painful it is.

 

[ronin67]

I don’t think I even know how to phrase this question. I am Catholic, always have been, and raised in a post Vatican II Church.

My husband became a Traditionalist 3 months after we were married and it has been very difficult to understand and reconcile this change in him.

I am very conservative and I follow Church teaching as closely as I know how to. My husband doesn’t like going to Mass at our Parish, he sometimes wonders if it is valid, and he wants to go to the Latin Mass exclusively and live like those people do. I don’t understand how I am doing anything wrong if I am following our Church and doctrines.

I have been reading that the SSPX community might be in full communion soon. I don’t have any idea what that means for us. I have read that Archbishop Lefevbre abandoned the Church, and taught that the devil penetrated the officials and the faithful should only go to his Church. How is that not the same thing Martin Luther did??

How is that not the same as Martin Luther??? Really??? Do you both read the Holy Bible together? Why don’t you sit down with him and start reading the Bible together. Do you both or did you both attend Bible Study at your parish? Attending Bible study with your spouse does accomplish many good things. I have seen many couples improve their marriage doing this. What parts doesn’t he think is valid about the mass?

May God bless!

Ed

 

[bonvivantHermit]

I hope OP is doing better.

 

[moon1234]

I responded the way I did b/c she said her husband was or had been a Sedevacantist. That’s a cult, in my mind, when you want to join a cult- you are controlling and/or confused/disordered. Additionally, she stated he, husband, disregarded the parish priest and insisted on attending the parish of his choice. Maybe the parish priest was wrong, but to outright reject the priest, w/o discussion/prayer etc., and insist on his way seemed controlling,

I think you do not know what you are talking about. Every religion is technically a cult. The Catholic Church even describes itself as a cult. You also need to get a dispensation of Cult when marrying a non-catholic.

Sedevacantists believe the current Pope is not a valid Pope. Most are just like the SSPX, but may use the 1962 missal or the 1955 or some other earlier missal. If you were to walk into one of their Church’s you would not be able to tell the difference in the Mass.

They are usually suspened, some excommunicated (rare), etc. I think you need to do some research about WHAT different groups believe and profess before you swing off on wild tangents.

Many people who question their faith, VII, etc. legitimately as they explore their faith and immediatly branded sedes by others. It is best to help the person in learning about their faith.

 

[Cider]

I hope the OP has not come back to this thread.

 

[mattkubes]

There is one Catholic church with many licit masses, not many Catholic churches. Also, the mass is not primarily a spectator event that makes you feel a certain way. The mass is a prayer and an offering to Christ who offers back to the parishioners via the priest his living body and his living blood.

I’m sorry, what? This sounds a little heterodox to me. The Mass is the re-presentation of the offering at Calvary - the offering of the Son to the Father (We humbly beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be borne by the hands of Thy holy angel to Thine altar on high in the presence of Thy divine Majesty… etc). We then take part in that same sacrifice. What you posted does not accurately describe the sacrificial and propitiatory nature of the Mass.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

On top of that, my wife and I had confession with one of the priests who is very hardcore Traditionalist and was stern and angry, and somewhat unsympathetic during her confession, which didn’t help matters for my wife.

Just kind of saying, I went to confession at an OF not too long ago and the priest was that way. He actually yelled slightly at me twice. I think maybe that is a personality issue.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I hope the women who initially posted here has gotten this far in the thread. This thread
is about her situation and her needs, not whether or not a particular Latin mass is valid
or beautiful.

I’m so glad someone posted a warning about his mother and sisters who lost their faith because they, “weren’t Catholic enough.” These people need to be in our prayers.

Mrs. so and so, if you are reading this:

1. Abuse does not get better no matter how much you love the person.
2. Abuse has to be confronted ASAP where you must find the courage to take additional
   steps if necessary.
3. Spiritual abuse is abuse where abuse is not part of marriage.
4. Having more children in an abusive situation will not improve the situation even though
   children are always a beautiful gift from God.
   
   Children deserve to be the result of a loving union between a husband and wife.

The steps to deal with abuse:

1. Tell your spouse you feel hurt and request he join you in an appropriate, safe, and
   neutral setting that fascilitates talking and problem solving.
   • Find a priest to advise the two of you spiritually.
2. If 1 doesn’t work, take courage and get a legal seperation.
3. If 2 doesn’t work, file for divorce.
4. If he is still abusive, fight him for full custody of the children and file for an anullment.

Think 3 years, no longer, to address abuse. I recommend 1 year per step and I hope if you get to 3 that divorce moves quickly for you.

I have never been married, but I have experienced sexual abuse at the hands of an older woman who will remain nameless. Loving her didn’t stop the abuse let alone cause a long term relationship to form.

ABUSE IS NOT PART OF MARRIAGE. CONSISTENT UNRELENTING ABUSE IS GROUNDS TO LEAVE A MARRIAGE. IF LEAVING IS NOT SUFFICIENT, THE
CHURCH MAY GRANT AN ANULLMENT AFTER A DIVORCE IS SECURED. ALL
REASONABLE EFFORT AND STEPS MUST BE TAKEN TO RESOLVE THE MARITAL PROBLEMS AND SAVE THE MARRIAGE IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.

Please Mrs. so and so, take heed of what I say and move to protect yourself and the children. I pray God will bring healing to your marriage, but He may need you to get
out of harm’s way first. Before the abuse started, this is what your husband would want you to do now.

Peace and Courage, God Bless.

Jumping in here. She did not say her husband was abusive and IMHO we should never advise anyone to seperate or get a divorce. That should be reserved for her spiritual director, priest, especially on a forum like this, you don’t know who you are talking to and who will just take your advice and go and that may not be the best thing but then divorce never is.

 

[mattkubes]

Jumping in here. She did not say her husband was abusive and IMHO we should never advise anyone to seperate or get a divorce. That should be reserved for her spiritual director, priest, especially on a forum like this, you don’t know who you are talking to and who will just take your advice and go and that may not be the best thing but then divorce never is.

I agree. And that post also gave the impression that a declaration of nullity is akin to a Catholic version of divorce. It may be used that way far to commonly, but it’s hardly part of the normal workup for ending a marriage (as if there was a “normal” workup for such a situation). Not that that advice should be coming over the internet anyway.

 

[fpt]

“My kids pull my veil off and I always look like a mess”.

I would like only to react at this sentence. Because, behind, there is very probably some indirect meanings.

The rigorism, the moralism, the sexism, the marital masculinism from lay person of SSPX is existing, the differences are only on the degree. I know very well this movement, in function of lands and chaptels of SSPX, the points of view are opposite.

For instance, in France between Paris and countryside , or between France and Australia.

The culture of clanism can be, perhaps, very strong. It is sad.

 

[adopted_heir]

Hm. Okay, I don’t wear a veil because my husband is sexist or the Church is or even the Society. The kids don’t try to pull my veil off because they’re trying to liberate me from a horrible sexist cult. They pull it off because they see this floppy thing on my head that they really, really need to wave around and slobber on. Why not, instead of saying kind of slanderous things, try to find out why women wear veils to Mass? FYI it was never abrogated, never officially discontinued. And once you understand the reasons for wearing it, it really is a beautiful devotion.

The severity or tenderness of priests is not a sectarian or denominational trait, it’s a personality trait. My second confession (loooong before I found tradition) was with an elderly priest in San Diego who ripped me to pieces. Bad experience. Hysterics for half an hour or so. Bad way to start the wedding rehearsal. Scared me off trying to go to confession again for maybe four, five months afterward. I took a lot of convincing from my boyfriend (now husband) and his family that that’s not how it’s supposed to be and that hopefully that priest just had a bug up his butt and will get over it. My most recent confession (with a Society priest) was thoughtful, kind, but perceptive and not sugary. Priests are different. I hope you can find a priest you’re comfortable with, or at least be able to avoid the ones who may need a refresher course in the mercy of God.

Also, no, the Mass is not a spectator sport. I frankly don’t understand this notion of participation–what is meant by that? We’re required to be there for our benefit, not because it can’t happen without us. It’s not like doing the wave, where if you don’t jump out of your seat and throw your arms up at just the right moment, it won’t work and everyone gets bummed. The priest who has been consecrated to do this work and to present the sacrifice is the active factor. The altar boys or deacons participate by offering the responses on behalf of the faithful. The faithful observe, pray, offer their lives on the altar with the priest, and prepare their hearts to receive the Lord’s body. Nobody has to be there except the priest. ‘Participation’ strikes me as inappropriate–I’m not a priest or deacon, I’m on the other side of the rail. I’m not consecrated or trained to participate. I think that separation is something important that has been lost or forgotten and is now misunderstood. The separation emphasizes that something special and holy is happening, not that the priest needs a hundred other people to act as jumper cables to start the transubstantiation.

 

[NFP1Kate]

Thank you for all the replies. I am having trouble keeping up with so many responses…life of a mother, I guess.

I reread my OP and I see how it could be understood as victimized, but that wasn’t my intention. My husband is a good man and good father. We have a wonderful marriage, and I promise he isn’t abusive. He is a type A personality and very opinionated, which has made our spiritual life difficult.

Over the 4 years of a marriage, I have tried to have a change in heart and view the world through his eyes. It has taken a long time, but I feel like we are connecting on a spiritual level that we have not been able to before. We attended the sspx Mass last week, and I feel that we are coming to a point where we are both content in our spiritual lives together.

It’s been a long time coming, thank you for the outpouring of support this last couple weeks. I have needed it.

 

[Chris712]

NFP1Kate, I know this is an old thread- but I am wondering what has happened with your marriage? I am going through a very similar situation.

 

[NFP1Kate]

NFP1Kate, I know this is an old thread- but I am wondering what has happened with your marriage? I am going through a very similar situation.

Chris712

This was very much the beginning of a journey for both of us. To make a long story short, what he experienced was not actually a yearning for tradition. It was more of a distrust of the Holy Spirit and of the Church. Seeking God in the sacraments brings joy… And all he felt was doubt (big red flag to realize it was not a sign from God. God brings us peace). He needed a good director to help him in this area. The problem was that he didn’t want to trust anyone to guide him.
Father Wade Menezes, a Father of Mercy, was influential in this journey.

He is still traditional.
But entirely in communion with Rome.

He is sympathetic to the SSPX, but, as he says, they are prideful, and he could not see that before.

We go to a parish that offers both EF and OF. I’m sure the journey isn’t over for us. I have changed too. I am more aware of the traditions. I wear a veil to Mass. I will never leave our faith, and I believes that his idea of traditionalism was not true tradition, but an attack of evil.

I’ll pray for your marriage and others that go through this.
Kate

 

[kozlosap]

Chris712

This was very much the beginning of a journey for both of us. To make a long story short, what he experienced was not actually a yearning for tradition. It was more of a distrust of the Holy Spirit and of the Church. Seeking God in the sacraments brings joy… And all he felt was doubt (big red flag to realize it was not a sign from God. God brings us peace). He needed a good director to help him in this area. The problem was that he didn’t want to trust anyone to guide him.
Father Wade Menezes, a Father of Mercy, was influential in this journey.

He is still traditional.
But entirely in communion with Rome.

He is sympathetic to the SSPX, but, as he says, they are prideful, and he could not see that before.

We go to a parish that offers both EF and OF. I’m sure the journey isn’t over for us. I have changed too. I am more aware of the traditions. I wear a veil to Mass. I will never leave our faith, and I believes that his idea of traditionalism was not true tradition, but an attack of evil.

I’ll pray for your marriage and others that go through this.
Kate

thank you for updating us, I’m so grateful that you are still married and not attending a sed chapel. God Bless You and your family.

 

[Chris712]

Chris712

This was very much the beginning of a journey for both of us. To make a long story short, what he experienced was not actually a yearning for tradition. It was more of a distrust of the Holy Spirit and of the Church. Seeking God in the sacraments brings joy… And all he felt was doubt (big red flag to realize it was not a sign from God. God brings us peace). He needed a good director to help him in this area. The problem was that he didn’t want to trust anyone to guide him.
Father Wade Menezes, a Father of Mercy, was influential in this journey.

He is still traditional.
But entirely in communion with Rome.

He is sympathetic to the SSPX, but, as he says, they are prideful, and he could not see that before.

We go to a parish that offers both EF and OF. I’m sure the journey isn’t over for us. I have changed too. I am more aware of the traditions. I wear a veil to Mass. I will never leave our faith, and I believes that his idea of traditionalism was not true tradition, but an attack of evil.

I’ll pray for your marriage and others that go through this.
Kate

Kate, thank you for your reply and thank you very much for your prayers. I have spent a great deal of time, tears, energy and prayer trying to understand my husband’s viewpoint. However, like you, I now see it is really a distrust of the Holy Spirit and the Church, though I am not sure where this comes from. I do know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the devil has his hands on my marriage and family, and I am heartbroken to say that he is winning. Your continued prayers are more appreciated than you will ever know.

 

[floresco]

To make a long story short, what he experienced was not actually a yearning for tradition. It was more of a distrust of the Holy Spirit and of the Church. Seeking God in the sacraments brings joy… And all he felt was doubt (big red flag to realize it was not a sign from God. God brings us peace). He needed a good director to help him in this area. The problem was that he didn’t want to trust anyone to guide him.

It is one thing for a person to realize about himself that he acted from bad motives such as distrust of the Holy Spirit and of the Church. It is another thing to judge that another person is doing this.

I am assuming that your words reflect the first possibility; you are passing on insights that your husband had about himself. I hope that nobody misunderstands your words to mean that they ought to judge traditional Catholics to be acting from bad motives. It can actually be sinful to make such negative interpretations of people’s words and actions.

As the Catechism teaches us:

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

To attribute bad motives to another generally leads to many problems. In a marriage, it is destructive of the relationship. It can very easily happen when a couple is disagreeing about traditionalism. People on both sides may be tempted to say (either aloud or to themselves), “my spouse is just doing that because his/her faith is weak” or some variation of this. We really need to stay away from this way of thinking and focus on objective Church teaching.

The Church teaches that the desire for traditional Sacraments and religious practices is a legitimate aspiration. That must be recognized by both spouses in a couple that disagrees over traditionalism. (I am pretty sure that Kate does recognize this. I am just trying to present the general principle.) Obviously, taking positions or actions that place one out of communion with the Holy See is objectively wrong.

People dealing with this sort of situation in their marriage should ask themselves, “Is my spouse objectively going against Church teaching or is s/he merely doing something that I do not feel comfortable with or find difficult to understand?” It is wrong to treat the latter as if it were the former.