I have a question for muslims.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Timi_Celcer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Timi_Celcer

Guest
You believe Jesus was the messiah right? But if he didn’t come to sacrifice himself for our sins why was He a messiah? For what else did Jesus save us or isralites? How can you say that Jesus was messiah if you don’t believe He died for our sins?
 
I’m not a muslim and I don’t know the answer to this question. Nevertheless, I didn’t think Islam saw Christ as the Messiah. I thought they simply numbered Him among the prophets.
 
Bergon said:
I’m not a muslim and I don’t know the answer to this question. Nevertheless, I didn’t think Islam saw Christ as the Messiah. I thought they simply numbered Him among the prophets.
Click to expand...
Muslims do call Isa a prophet and the Messiah.
 
Bergon said:
I’m not a muslim and I don’t know the answer to this question. Nevertheless, I didn’t think Islam saw Christ as the Messiah. I thought they simply numbered Him among the prophets.
Click to expand...
Muslims do believe Jesus is the Messiah since the Quran calls him the Messiah on more than one occassion. Case in point:

When the angels said, ‘Mary, God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He will speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult; he will be one of the righteous.’ ‘Lord,’ said Mary, ‘how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?’ ‘Even so,’ God said, ‘God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it “Be,” and it is.’ S. 3:45-47 Arthur J. Arberry

Here is another version:

Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God; He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.” She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!” Abdullah Yusuf Ali
 
Bergon said:
I’m not a muslim and I don’t know the answer to this question. Nevertheless, I didn’t think Islam saw Christ as the Messiah. I thought they simply numbered Him among the prophets.
Click to expand...
You are right if you mean that Islam does not have the same understanding of the term ‘Messiah’ as we Christians do.

They may call Jesus the Messiah but Muslims would give you blank on what it means for Jesus to be a Messiah. If he is the Anointed One, then Anointed for what? What is the significant of this Anointing?

From what I have gathered from the Muslims that I came across, they do not really know about all this except for the fact that Jesus is called Jesus Christ (Isa Almasih) in the Quran. Does the Quran teaches what the term Messiah means and how it derived? Probably not.
 
Timi_Celcer said:
You believe Jesus was the messiah right? But if he didn’t come to sacrifice himself for our sins why was He a messiah? For what else did Jesus save us or isralites? How can you say that Jesus was messiah if you don’t believe He died for our sins?
Click to expand...
Muslims believe that the Messiah is an extraordinary prophet for the Jewish people, without the “Sacrificing” concept.

However, some Muslims believe that when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-44) to have the cup passed from Him, GOD listened to that prayer (JESUS Will) and saved Him, there where the Quran confirms that JESUS was not crucified nor killed but GOD raised Him to heavens and the whole crucifixion process later on was an illusion from GOD.

That why I myself keep researching for the meaning of “let this cup pass from me”, does it mean:
  1. The Crucifixion itself.
  2. The Torturing/Humiliation/Sorrow just before the crucifixion.
 
Sam_777 said:
Muslims believe that the Messiah is an extraordinary prophet for the Jewish people, without the “Sacrificing” concept.

However, some Muslims believe that when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-44) to have the cup passed from Him, GOD listened to that prayer (JESUS Will) and saved Him, there where the Quran confirms that JESUS was not crucified nor killed but GOD raised Him to heavens and the whole crucifixion process later on was an illusion from GOD.

That why I myself keep researching for the meaning of “let this cup pass from me”, does it mean:
  1. The Crucifixion itself.
  2. The Torturing/Humiliation/Sorrow just before the crucifixion.
Click to expand...
Hey Sam, God bless you on your search for the truth. You’re an inspiration for me, as my Dad works in Saudi and I understand that it’s impossible to be a Christian convert there. I want to redirect you further down the chapter you are referring to:

53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so? "

You see, often the Bible explains it’s self. After Christ’s prayer He flat out says, “I could end this, but if I did it would be selfish and the Scriptures will not be fulfilled.” Jesus is a perfect example of how one should live ones life as a man. He had to feel sorrow, pain, and be willing to submit to God under intense circumstances. He had to empty Himself of His divinity to be the perfect man.

Keep searching!
 
Sam_777 said:
However, some Muslims believe that when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-44) to have the cup passed from Him, GOD listened to that prayer (JESUS Will) and saved Him, there where the Quran confirms that JESUS was not crucified nor killed but GOD raised Him to heavens and the whole crucifixion process later on was an illusion from GOD.

That why I myself keep researching for the meaning of “let this cup pass from me”, does it mean:
  1. The Crucifixion itself.
  2. The Torturing/Humiliation/Sorrow just before the crucifixion.
Click to expand...
But Sam NO Islam teaching ever uses Bible quotes. So Muslims who use this really DON’T know what they are talking about. They are simply believing Muslims who pick and choose what they like and disregard what they don’t like. No follow through and missing the context. These Muslims who take others words for it simply because they believe these Bible quoting Muslims.

MJ
 
Sam_777 said:
Muslims believe that the Messiah is an extraordinary prophet for the Jewish people, without the “Sacrificing” concept.

However, some Muslims believe that when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-44) to have the cup passed from Him, GOD listened to that prayer (JESUS Will) and saved Him, there where the Quran confirms that JESUS was not crucified nor killed but GOD raised Him to heavens and the whole crucifixion process later on was an illusion from GOD.

That why I myself keep researching for the meaning of “let this cup pass from me”, does it mean:
  1. The Crucifixion itself.
  2. The Torturing/Humiliation/Sorrow just before the crucifixion.
Click to expand...
I am not satisfied that Muslims know what they are talking about when they say Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is NOT a Messiah in the Jewish concept as demonstrated by how the Jewish apostles at first misunderstood the Messiahship of Jesus.

Islam cannot accept the Christian concept of Jesus the Messiah since it denies salvation from sin by Jesus death.

So what concept of Messiah does Muslims apply to Jesus? It is more like the Quran is simply parroting Christians in saying that Jesus is the Messiah (Jesus Christ) probably thinking that Jesus Christ is just a full name of Jesus.
 
Reuben_J said:
So what concept of Messiah does Muslims apply to Jesus? It is more like the Quran is simply parroting Christians in saying that Jesus is the Messiah (Jesus Christ) probably thinking that Jesus Christ is just a full name of Jesus.
Click to expand...
According to Islam, Jesus is coming back to bring everyone to Islam and kill the Anti Christ. So I suppose that could be an answer Muslims could give.
 
dronald said:
According to Islam, Jesus is coming back to bring everyone to Islam and kill the Anti Christ. So I suppose that could be an answer Muslims could give.
Click to expand...
Does Islamic teaching ever mention that “Christ” is the Greek word for “Messiah”? :hmmm:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Does Islamic teaching ever mention that “Christ” is the Greek word for “Messiah”? :hmmm:

MJ
Click to expand...
You’re looking for a deep Theology behind what the Qur’an says, which is impossible because the Qur’an doesn’t explain it’s self. All a Muslim can do is speculate:

Qur’an 3:45Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

“Messiah” means, “anointed one” and because Islam doesn’t have a deep Theology as to what such an “anointed one” will do, it can basically mean anything. The Qur’an gives an explanation of what such an anointed one should accomplish:

3:49And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “‘I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50’(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
51’It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.’”

So according to the Qur’an, Jesus was the Messiah to Israel by telling them to believe in God and performing miracles. Muslims may also say he is the Messiah in that he is anointed to kill the Anti-Christ.

Another example of the Qur’ans ambiguity would be one of the passages within this revelation:

3:47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!

Notice here that Jesus is born of a virgin “just because”?

A third example would be the Jews (or whoever) trying to kill Jesus. There’s no explanation as to why they wanted to kill him. Why in the world would Jews want to kill another Jew just for doing miracles and teaching others to fear God? Again, one can only speculate.
 
dronald said:
You’re looking for a deep Theology behind what the Qur’an says, which is impossible because the Qur’an doesn’t explain it’s self. All a Muslim can do is speculate:

Qur’an 3:45Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

“Messiah” means, “anointed one” and because Islam doesn’t have a deep Theology as to what such an “anointed one” will do, it can basically mean anything. The Qur’an gives an explanation of what such an anointed one should accomplish:

3:49And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “‘I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50’(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
51’It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.’”

So according to the Qur’an, Jesus was the Messiah to Israel by telling them to believe in God and performing miracles. Muslims may also say he is the Messiah in that he is anointed to kill the Anti-Christ.

Another example of the Qur’ans ambiguity would be one of the passages within this revelation:

3:47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!

Notice here that Jesus is born of a virgin “just because”?

A third example would be the Jews (or whoever) trying to kill Jesus. There’s no explanation as to why they wanted to kill him. Why in the world would Jews want to kill another Jew just for doing miracles and teaching others to fear God? Again, one can only speculate.
Click to expand...
Thanks Dronald.

You do really try to see the Muslims view (atleast,those who use the Qur’an as a proof text) to lessen Jesus’ true identity as God. I pray for these Muslims.

In the mean time as you point,out there isn’t a deep Theology and that’s where the buck stops.

Which brings me to whether the angels such as Gabriel who’s name actually stands for “God’s Strength” (and similar connotations) is recognized in Islamic teaching. Or simply name throwing pronounced Arabically, as Jibril, just because it is in Scripture?

MJ
 
Since we’re talking about ambiguity in Islam, it would be interesting to know about John the Baptist; who at no point in the Qur’an is labeled, “The Baptist.”

Rather, he is a prophet who was also “Given the Scripture” along with Jesus, Zachariah and Elijah. Apparently he was a very good guy, the Qur’an describes him as pure, devout, dutiful to his parents, not arrogant or rebellious and he was submissive to Allah.

Here are the only (4) times where John (the baptist?) appears in the Qur’an:

*Then Zachariah prayed unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Bestow upon me of Thy bounty goodly offspring. Lo! Thou art the Hearer of Prayer. And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: Allah giveth thee glad tidings of (a son whose name is) John, (who cometh) to confirm a word from Allah, lordly, chaste, a prophet of the righteous. S. 3:38-39 Pickthall

And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous. … Those are they unto whom We gave the Scripture and command and prophethood. But if these disbelieve therein, then indeed We shall entrust it to a people who will not be disbelievers therein. S. 6:85,89 Pickthall

(It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him). … (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child, And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout, And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious. Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive! 19:7,12-15 Pickthall

And Zachariah, when he cried unto his Lord: My Lord! Leave me not childless, though Thou art the Best of inheritors. Then We heard his prayer, and bestowed upon him John, and adjusted his wife (to bear a child) for him. Lo! they used to vie one with the other in good deeds, and they cried unto Us in longing and in fear, and were submissive unto Us. S. 21:89-90 Pickthall*

It’s rather interesting that John was not considered the Baptist, especially because that’s what John has always been labeled as. Another question worth asking is, “Did John the Baptist Baptize in Islam?” Also, did John proclaim that one is coming who will Baptize with the Holy Spirit? Did John Baptize Jesus? And if he did, did God then say, “This is my Son, with Him I am well pleased.”?

Ignoring the history of John’s Baptism is just that, ignoring history. Look at what Josephus wrote about him. (non-biblical source written 93-94. Jewish historian)

Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was* called the Baptist: *for Herod slew him, who was a good man… Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion… Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod’s suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.
 
Timi_Celcer said:
You believe Jesus was the messiah right? But if he didn’t come to sacrifice himself for our sins why was He a messiah? For what else did Jesus save us or isralites? How can you say that Jesus was messiah if you don’t believe He died for our sins?
Click to expand...
Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah by the definition of what the word means “anointed one”. Being anointed does not restrict someone or make it incumbent upon them to offer atonement for the sake of others, just like some of the previous prophets and kings in the OT who were also anointed (usually by oil). I’m not sure how and when Jesus was in fact anointed? I’m guessing they believe he was anointed shortly after his birth. He was anointed by the Word of Allah when Allah gave him the power to speak under the Palm tree.

The mission of Jesus was to save Israel by preaching to them the truth about Allah. It was Muhammad’s mission to save the world by revealing the Quran, first to the Arabians (Ishmael’s descendants) then the entire world.

Muslims – feel free to correct me if I said anything inaccurate.
 
Augustine3 said:
Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah by the definition of what the word means “anointed one”. Being anointed does not restrict someone or make it incumbent upon them to offer atonement for the sake of others, just like some of the previous prophets and kings in the OT who were also anointed (usually by oil). I’m not sure how and when Jesus was in fact anointed? I’m guessing they believe he was anointed shortly after his birth. He was anointed by the Word of Allah when Allah gave him the power to speak under the Palm tree.

The mission of Jesus was to save Israel by preaching to them the truth about Allah. It was Muhammad’s mission to save the world by revealing the Quran, first to the Arabians (Ishmael’s descendants) then the entire world.

Muslims – feel free to correct me if I said anything inaccurate.
Click to expand...
👍 well explained brother in Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top