I have a question regarding a show I watched on the History Channel about Moses and Joshua

[ChadS]

I just wanted to point out that some of the stuff shown on the History Channel needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of the experts they put on the shows can be either cranks or quacks. They also like to ramp up the sensational and focus on the blood and the gore. Why didn’t they produce a show about the ancient Israelites that is about love and peace?

The History Channel will also pass off as expert opinions and make it seem all academics hold to a certain opinion when this may very much be the minority opinion. The scholars that hold the mainstream opinion or know the basic and settled facts are given only a tiny voice. For example the other week they had a show on Ancient Astronauts, or how aliens built all the world’s ancient structures and introduced technology and math to mankind. Watching the show every expert talked seriously about how and what happened in regards to why these aliens haven’t come back or what they may have taught mankind. Watching this you’d think this stuff was seriously taken in academia. Far from the truth, however watching HC you wouldn’t know it.

If you really want to know the truth behind Moses and why things in the Bible happened the way it says, you’d be better off finding a good, well-writtend and balanced book by somebody passing for a mainstream scholar.

The HC does have good stuff on it and I enjoy the show, but just take some of their programming with a grain of salt.

ChadS

 

[JP_Marat]

I’m not sure if this is entirely accurate. It seems that it was in there, then it was taken out by Church officials who thought it was too lenient on those who commit adultery.

Here is what I found on AgapeBibleStudy.Com

RESPONSE:

Thank you for mentioning the 4th century writers who thought that John 8, the story of the woman taken in adultery, was in scripture. You won’ find any Church Fathers from the 1st through 3rd century refering to it since it was part of scriptuyre until it was added about the 4th century.

The oldest more or less complete OT and NT manuscripts we have, the Codex Sinaticua (325 AD) and the Codex Vaticanus (c 375) don’t contain this adultery story. It was a later write in.

 

[Fidelis]

The oldest more or less complete OT and NT manuscripts we have, the Codex Sinaticua (325 AD) and the Codex Vaticanus (c 375) don’t contain this adultery story. It was a later write in.

,It is also important while saying this to not leave the impression that, while this much may be accurate according to biblical scholars, it does not follow that the story of the adulterous is therefore “made up” or not something that Jesus really said and did. Since the Church has by her Christ-given authority defined this passage as inspired Scripture then, whatever it’s provenance and however it made it into John’s Gospel, that is what it is.

 

[NotWorthy]

RESPONSE:

Thank you for mentioning the 4th century writers who thought that John 8, the story of the woman taken in adultery, was in scripture. You won’ find any Church Fathers from the 1st through 3rd century refering to it since it was part of scriptuyre until it was added about the 4th century.

The oldest more or less complete OT and NT manuscripts we have, the Codex Sinaticua (325 AD) and the Codex Vaticanus (c 375) don’t contain this adultery story. It was a later write in.

Doesn’t Jerome mention an older copy that had it? Or is HE the one that made it up?

But you seemed to ignore the statement that there is a gap missing in older renderings. Why is that?

 

[patrick457]

Doesn’t Jerome mention an older copy that had it? Or is HE the one that made it up?

But you seemed to ignore the statement that there is a gap missing in older renderings. Why is that?

I think wikipedia is fairly reliable in this issue:

The pericope is not found in its canonical place in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts; neither in the two 3rd century papyrus witnesses to John - P66 and P75; nor in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, although all four of these manuscripts may acknowledge the existence of the passage via diacritical marks at the spot. The first surviving Greek manuscript to contain the pericope is the Latin/Greek diglot Codex Bezae of the late 4th or early 5th century. Papias (circa 125 CE) refers to a story of Jesus and a woman “accused of many sins” as being found in the Gospel of the Hebrews, which may well refer to this passage; There is a very certain quotation of the pericope adulterae in the 3rd Century Syriac Didascalia Apostolorum; though without indicating John’s Gospel. The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II.24 refers to the passage “And when the elders had set another woman which had sinned before Him, and had left the sentence to Him, and were gone out, our Lord, the Searcher of the hearts, inquiring of her whether the elders had condemned her, and being answered No, He said unto her: “Go thy way therefore, for neither do I condemn thee.”” Book II is generally dated to the late third century (Von Drey, Krabbe, Bunsen, Funk). Codex Fuldensis which is positively dated to AD 546 contains the alduterae pericope. The Second Epistle of Pope Callistus section 6[7] contains a quote that may be from John 8:11 - “Let him see to it that he sin no more, that the sentence of the Gospel may abide in him: “Go, and sin no more.”” However the epistle quotes from eighth century writings and is not thought to be genuine.

Until recently, it was not thought that any Greek Church Father had taken note of the passage before the 12th Century; but in 1941 a large collection of the writings of Didymus the Blind (ca. 313- 398) was discovered in Egypt, including a reference to the pericope adulterae as being found in “several copies”; and it is now considered established that this passage was present in its canonical place in many Greek manuscripts known in Alexandria and elsewhere from the 4th Century onwards. In support of this it is noted that the 4th century Codex Vaticanus, which was written in Egypt, marks the end of John chapter 7 with an “umlaut”, indicating that an alternative reading was known at this point.

Jerome reports that the pericope adulterae was to be found in its canonical place in “many Greek and Latin manuscripts” in Rome and the Latin West in the late 4th Century. This is confirmed by the consensus of Latin Fathers of the 4th and 5th Centuries CE; including Ambrose, and Augustine. The latter claimed that the passage may have been improperly excluded from some manuscripts in order to avoid the impression that Christ had sanctioned adultery:

Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord’s act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin.​

The article on the pericope also lists the manuscript evidence.

 

[patrick457]

Ok, but it still doesn’t explain the babies?? They could have taken the babies and raised them Christian, no??? So, the slaughter of all those babies and children make no sense to me.

There is a rather good and comprehensive article on the question, How could a God of Love order the massacre/annihilation of the Canaanites?

Plus, I’d like to point out that Christianity never existed yet, so it would be impossible for the Israelites to “teach” them that. Also, back then religion was inseparably connected with national identity - if you were born an Israelite, you would be raised worshipping the God of Israel; if you were born Egyptian, you would be reared under the shadow of the Egyptian gods. The idea of ‘converting’ into one religion into another (as well as “freedom of religion”) was still pretty much a foreign concept; back then it would probably be equal to forfeiting your ‘citizenship’ in your native nation. It was simply unthinkable.

 

[JP_Marat]

Doesn’t Jerome mention an older copy that had it? Or is HE the one that made it up?

But you seemed to ignore the statement that there is a gap missing in older renderings. Why is that?

RESPONSE:

(1) “Doesn’t Jerome mention an older copy that had it” Not that I know of. Would you cite your reference?

(2) “a gap missing in older renderings” Again, what are you talking about? Please cite your evidence.

 

[NotWorthy]

RESPONSE:

(1) “Doesn’t Jerome mention an older copy that had it” Not that I know of. Would you cite your reference?

In post 20, I mentioned that Jerome used the oldest known existent Greek and Hebrew texts when translating the Vulgate. It seems that they were in the text.

(2) “a gap missing in older renderings” Again, what are you talking about? Please cite your evidence.

I’m sorry. I thought that was in post 20, but I’ll get it again and post it later this afternoon.

 

[EnterCanaan]

God’s chosen people was Israel. Though few Jews were ever saved, as we have documented proof in the Bible that a handful here and a handful there were ever saved, nevertheless, Israel coud be explained as the Church in those days. Regardless of the rebelion against God, such as Aaron and golden calf, the murmuring against God as Israel wandered the wilderness, Moses striking the rock twice when he was commanded to strike it only once, the worship of the bronze serpent, the man in numbers who picked up only a few sticks and was stoned to death, and the “high places” which were pagen alters where the people of the day worshipped other gods by burning incense and making sacrifices.

The man in numbers is a good illustration of Gods law. You see God set aside the sabath, to sanctify the day because God had finished all of His work. Because God worked for six days, and on the seventh He rested, thus it was sanctified [Which means “to set apart”] and so the sabbath was to be a day of rest where His people were sanctified by His work. And what happened in Numbers, is a man only bent down to pick up a few sticks. He wasn’t making a fire, he wasnt building anything, he wasn’t hunting, he simply picked up a few sticks on the sabbath, ie “work”. The Jews then took this man and brought him before Moses.

“Moses, what should we do with this man who has broken Gods Word[law]” And so Moses comes before God and asked, “Lord, what do we do to this man who is found guilty of breaking your law.” And God says, “stone him to death.” That is “Kill him.”

Now this example fits in nicely with your question considering Moses and eventually Joshua leading Israel into the land of Canaan. To elaborate, was this evil of God to kill the man, was this unmerciful of God to kill the man, is this a violation of Gods commandment, did God break His own word.

No He didn’t. If you look surface deep at just the words then you would assume to judge that God did an evil thing, however if you look a little deeper, meaning after you begin to grasp the bible as a “whole” then you can compare scripture to scripture and begin to find harmony.

the harmony is this. We are not saved by works, and The wages of sin, is death.

God made a law, that is Gods commandment, or Gods word, is also known as The Law of God. And God sanctified the sabbath because He was finished with all of His work, and the man in numbers picked up some sticks, which was work, and violated the law of God, and …

the PERFECT law of God, requires the PERFECT judgment of God. The judgment is death. This man in numbers as well as the pagens slaughtered as commanded by God to Joshua, were violating Gods law, sumarily, they were in rebelion against God, furthermore to be in rebelion against God is to be under Gods wrath, … You must connect all of this to its conclusion before you have complete harmony… To be under Gods wrath means that you have not been saved, to not be saved is to dead in your sins, and the wages of sin is death.

It is not a matter of fairness or evil or God breaking His own Word. this is a case of God gives man His law, His perfect law, and the punishment for breaking Gods perfect law, is Gods perfect judgment, that is Gods wrath, and the wages of sin is death.

Now these parables that we read, ie the man in Numbers who picked up sticks and did work and Joshua slaughtering pagens, must be understood to be parables before you can grasp the harmony.

 

[EnterCanaan]

And a parable is a earthly story with a spiritual meaning. the whole bible is the word of God, Christ is also the word made flesh, both Christ and the bible are the words of God, meaning they are completely identified with each other, they both teach salvation, they both come from God, they are both the word of God, and so the word is spoken in parables, From cover to cover, the WORD is SPOKEN in PARABLES.

Ps 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old.
Matt 13:34
All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
Matt 13:35
that is might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
Mark 5:33
And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.
Mark 5:34
But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.
Luke 12:41
Then Peter said to Him, “Lord do you speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”

The parable of the man in Numbers can be understood like this, this man was real, he literally picked up sticks, and he was stoned to death for breaking Gods law, that is the earthly story, the spiritual meaning is that we are not saved by works. All the work was completed by God, and so He set one day aside to sanctify His work, and so when this man picked up sticks, he was doing work and the spiritual meaning is that we are not saved by our works.

We are as dead as the man in Numbers if we believe any work we do will get us saved. Any work that we do is as nothing to God, because God did all the work. This is what the word teaches. Stories like this are given to us, as explained by this passage:

2Tim 3:14-17
But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It may seem a bit harsh to kill the man in Numbers for such a triffle, yet the complete revelation of Gods word had yet to be finished, and so God gives us these very real and literal examples because the lesson the parable teaches is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

 

[EnterCanaan]

i almost forgot, and so was it evil that God commands Joshua to slaughter all the pagens, No this is Gods plan as He made a promise to Abraham, a covenant, to bring forth from his seed a redeemer. And so the people of Israel were Gods chosen for this reason, because God chose Abraham, who was a direct descendent of Noah, who was a direct descendent of Adam, a complete unbroken genealogy, and the covenant with Abraham promised to Abraham that he would one day bring to his posession the promised land of Canaan, and so all the obsticles in the way of the progress of Israel were there to show the wisdom of God,

The point of Creation and the salvation plan, is to show the powers and principalities the love and wisdom of God through God’s salvation plan. He would give them to pagen kings who would oppress them, and Gods wisdom would be seen as with a heavy hand Israel was oppressed, and with a heavy hand they would be redeemed. All to show the wisdom of God, All God, nothing to do with us mere mortals. As we are only creations of the creator. All glory goes to Him. Even our bondage, our slavery, or slaughter, all to because we rebelled, however when we would eventually cry out to God, and beg for mercy, when we rebuked our pagen gods and came into the warm embrace of our Father, did God deem to show His great and powerful mercy upon His chosen. Always tests, tests and tests, to prove to God our understanding of His perfect love. His perfect wisdom.

We can thank the introduction of sin as the cause of so much slaughter, yet God needs to complete His word, and He needed to tell His story of salvation through the generations and the consequences for disobeyeing God, all for the future seeds of future generations so that Christ would not lose one single person,

and everybody that Christ came to save, He lost not a single soul. All the way to the end of time and judgment day, His salvation plan continues. And we read the bible, Gods word, and study the parables, and learn important truths for the benefit of our eternal salvation.

ie, we are not saved by works, because if we believe that anything, ANYTHING we do will get us saved, then we are as dead as the man in Numbers.

And so God had Joshua slaughter because the people slaughtered were in rebellion against God, did not believe in God, and thus, they were already dead in their sins, they had no redeemer like Israel had, and so to proliferate Gods salvation plan, when the time came, over the course of time, which God forordained, He would pit the might and power and wisdom of Himself over His pagen enemy born into sin and in rebellion against Him. To prove to the powers and principalities, as well as His chosen people, that HE was the ALMIGHTY, and that is not evil or mean or anything of the sort, but a hard reality during the days when God still spoke to prophets.

It was a hard life back then, and it was with a hard hand God brought His people back to Him, proving that He is the God of Gods.

It was a very hard road for the small peoples known as Israel to walk, however this is Gods plan and it worked perfectly.

 

[ricmat]

It says that they killed and slaughtered all sorts of people “at God’s will”. I was horrified, because I did not know this before. They even killed women and children. Why and how could this be God’s will?? Doesn’t this go against his order’s not to kill-ESPECIALLY innocent people like babies??? This really bothers me…

I realize that at this point, much has been said already on this thread.

But I just stumbled across something that directly relates to your question. From the book of Wisdom, chapters 11-12 is the following. I know this is a pretty long passage, but it seems to explain things to some degree:

Wis 11:21-26 For with you great strength abides always; who can resist the might of your arm? (22) Indeed, before you the whole universe is as a grain from a balance, or a drop of morning dew come down upon the earth. (23) But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things; and you overlook the sins of men that they may repent. (24) For you love all things that are and loathe nothing that you have made; for what you hated, you would not have fashioned. (25) And how could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you? (26) But you spare all things, because they are yours, O LORD and lover of souls,

Wis 12:1-27 for your imperishable spirit is in all things! (2) Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD! (3) For truly, the ancient inhabitants of your holy land, (4) whom you hated for deeds most odious-- Works of witchcraft and impious sacrifices; (5) a cannibal feast of human flesh and of blood, from the midst of. . .-- These merciless murderers of children, (6) and parents who took with their own hands defenseless lives, You willed to destroy by the hands of our fathers, (7) that the land that is dearest of all to you might receive a worthy colony of God’s children. (8) But even these, as they were men, you spared, and sent wasps as forerunners of your army that they might exterminate them by degrees. (9) Not that you were without power to have the wicked vanquished in battle by the just, or wiped out at once by terrible beasts or by one decisive word; (10) But condemning them bit by bit, you gave them space for repentance. You were not unaware that their race was wicked and their malice ingrained, And that their dispositions would never change; (11) for they were a race accursed from the beginning. Neither out of fear for anyone did you grant amnesty for their sins. (12) For who can say to you, “What have you done?” or who can oppose your decree? Or when peoples perish, who can challenge you, their maker; or who can come into your presence as vindicator of unjust men? (13) For neither is there any god besides you who have the care of all, that you need show you have not unjustly condemned; (14) Nor can any king or prince confront you on behalf of those you have punished. (15) But as you are just, you govern all things justly; you regard it as unworthy of your power to punish one who has incurred no blame. (16) For your might is the source of justice; your mastery over all things makes you lenient to all. (17) For you show your might when the perfection of your power is disbelieved; and in those who know you, you rebuke temerity. (18) But though you are master of might, you judge with clemency, and with much lenience you govern us; for power, whenever you will, attends you. (19) And you taught your people, by these deeds, that those who are just must be kind; And you gave your sons good ground for hope that you would permit repentance for their sins. (20) For these were enemies of your servants, doomed to death; yet, while you punished them with such solicitude and pleading, granting time and opportunity to abandon wickedness, (21) With what exactitude you judged your sons, to whose fathers you gave the sworn covenants of goodly promises! (22) Us, therefore, you chastise and our enemies with a thousand blows you punish, that we may think earnestly of your goodness when we judge, and, when being judged, may look for mercy. (23) Hence those unjust also, who lived a life of folly, you tormented through their own abominations. (24) For they went far astray in the paths of error, taking for gods the worthless and disgusting among beasts, deceived like senseless infants. (25) Therefore as though upon unreasoning children, you sent your judgment on them as a mockery; (26) But they who took no heed of punishment which was but child’s play were to experience a condemnation worthy of God. (27) For in the things through which they suffered distress, since they were tortured by the very things they deemed gods, They saw and recognized the true God whom before they had refused to know; with this, their final condemnation came upon them.

 

[JP_Marat]

Originally Posted by AmandaB
It says that they killed and slaughtered all sorts of people “at God’s will”. I was horrified, because I did not know this before. They even killed women and children. Why and how could this be God’s will?? Doesn’t this go against his order’s not to kill-ESPECIALLY innocent people like babies??? This really bothers me…

RESPONSE:

Yes. Do you think that God realy told the Hebrews to do that; or did they practice genocide and then claim “God made me do it”?

JPM

 

[juliamajor]

The problem with the “Conquest” is that it doesn’t gel with Archaeology or with the Book of Judges.Judges shows a slow infitration by the Israelites not the “Stormin Norman” variety in Joshua.outside of Torah and the Book of Joshua there is little about his exploits(especially the Battle of Jericho) mentioned in other parts of the OT.Judges has a few tantalizing bits but nothing of substance and no details on those great battles or daring do of Joshua.For someone who supposedly responsible for the conquest of Canaan, who took over from Moses he rates very little press. and is but a footnote in the rest of the Bible.
Having said that you are dealing with people of a specific place and time.-how they would interpret what was happening to them and their responses to enemies would be seen through the prism of their culture,religion and historical time they lived in.
That amost all the cultures of the ANE practiced herem is a fact.Herem was dedicating to the god everything in a city-it meant the total destruction of everything-no loot or booty was allowed to be taken. it was a thanksgiving to the god for the victory they had gained through the deity’s intercession.It was the custom of place and time. How many people of the future will look on us with digust for our killing of our children or our seeming love of slaughter in the 20th and 21st Century.And for the “noble” reasons we attach to them! Modern histories ‘body counts’ tower anything done in the ancient past- and we’re supposed enlightened Christians! But humanity is humanity-human nature doesn’t really change unless we really take our Savior’s teachings to heart AND obey them.