I have three Questions

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  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
In answer to question 1. regarding the empty tomb of Jesus being the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.

The empty tomb is nothing. (pun intended) The greatest shrine possible is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Furthermore, the pilgrimage to the Real Presence of Jesus Christ can be made anywhere, anytime, that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated. This pilgrimage can also be made to any church or chapel which has Eucharistic Adoration.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
What’s even more of a head-scratcher, IMO, is the fact that Josephus actively chronicled the reign of Herod, but somehow “missed” the slaughter of all the infant boys in Judea at Herod’s command. Josephus was no fan of Herod and described events of Herod’s reign in great detail generally, so it’s odd that he would’ve overlooked something like this.
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
I don’t know if there are any strictly contemporary historians from that era whose work survives at all. The Jewish Civil War was a turbulent time, and it’s plausible that documents before that might’ve been destroyed or lost.

From what I gather, here’s the situation with Josephus:
  • the consensus is generally (though not universally) that the Testimonium Flavianum was an embellishment of a more mundane account of Jesus, not an outright fabrication. It seems that the original version probably didn’t include statements about miracles, and amounted more to something like “Jesus was a rebellious rabbi who was executed by the authorities, and his followers still exist today”.
  • the other reference to Jesus (where Josephus mentions “James, brother of Jesus” in a rather offhand way), is normally considered to be genuine.
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
The location of the tomb is known. Simply Google “Church of the Holy Sepulchre”.
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error…
Many of the apparent contradictions can be cleared up with study, but some may not be easy to explain. However, this is not unusual. Four eye-witnesses may testify at a trial concerning a crime that they observed, and their stories may vary without any concluding that the crime did not occur. In fact, it is my understanding that when multiple witnesses agree on every detail on something, prosecutors suspect collusion. Thus, the lack of harmony may suggest that the Gospel accounts are MORE credible and not the result of an elaborate hoax perpetrated by Jesus’ followers.
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
I do not believe that Josephus is considered to be unreliable by serious scholars.
 
It wasn’t much later that we have records of syncretistic Romans (the kind who tried to worship every god on the block) trying to worship Jesus Christ. There are also some snarky remarks from various Roman historians (Tacitus for one) about the Christians worshipping this condemned criminal, and of course about Nero mocking the Christians by crucifying them in his garden. There are numerous snarky remarks from pagan apologists about Christians obviously being up to no good since they worshipped this Jewish criminal, and some who claimed Jesus was illegitimate and not virgin-born; but none I’ve seen who claimed Jesus didn’t exist historically and had been made up.

This is actually one of the weird things about the Christian position. Nobody worried about whether Hermes Trismegistus ever lived to tread the earth, or whether anyone actually saw his miracles and magical spells work. Christians did spend a lot of time making sure everyone knew Jesus Christ was real and historical, and that there were plenty of eyewitnesses to all his miracles. It was an easy weakness to exploit in their case – if Jesus hadn’t been historical, and if there hadn’t been tons of eyewitnesses running around the Empire.

There was once a book in five volumes of reminiscences collected from such people, or from people who were taught by the Apostles. Papias went around collecting this oral history. Again, no suggestion that Jesus wasn’t a real person. You don’t usually collect oral histories of the sayings of Superman, or the teachings of Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane.

Of course, we don’t have the records of the provinces of Judea and Galilaea, do we? The early Christians did. Heck, the Romans kept court transcripts of everything. They could just look all this stuff up in the secular records. So of course nobody doubted it back then.
 
If you wish, you can email me privately and I will go indepth about the dating issue regarding Herod.

As for the slaughter of the infants, it was a village. Middleastern villages are small, and we are talking of a number of firstborn male infants probaly equaling about 40, hardly enough to comment on. Everybody seems to picture all events on the Bible on a grand scale. Jesus was probably crucified not too high off the ground, the golden calf was probably small enough to hold with both hands, and middle eastern villages are not all the equivalent of Jerusalem. Hope this puts some things into perspective.

Jewish traditions such as the Talmud speak of Jesus as a historical character, Josephus; I can look into more if you would like. Hoever, this is a Jewish issue, and he died the most shameful (to near eastern minds) death of the ancient world. It wouldn’t be made a big deal of. A very detailed look at historical crucifixion by Hengel explains and quotes ancient sources expressing that crucifixion and its victims should not even be mentioned, let along discussed indepth. Indeed, the fact that he is mentioned at all says something, much more the fact that Jews and gentiles were willing to give up their cultures, religions, citizenship and died for him.

As for the tomb, it has been found, and is a big pilgrimage site. Only Protestants question it for polemical reasons. Even secular archaelogists on the history channel said the Catholics most likely got this one right.

God Be With you.
 
Many of the apparent contradictions can be cleared up with study, but some may not be easy to explain. However, this is not unusual. Four eye-witnesses may testify at a trial concerning a crime that they observed, and their stories may vary without any concluding that the crime did not occur.
Exactly. Consider the “empty tomb” narratives from the Gospels. They do differ in details, but they all agree on the central point: the tomb was empty, and Jesus Christ did rise from the dead. The differences in details do not invalidate the historical value of the narratives; in fact, they strengthen their witness by indicating their independence.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
Regarding point #2, contact two friends 40 or 50 years after an event, maybe a party that you all attended in college. Don’t talk about it before hand, just have each of you write a detailed account of what happened. Will the accounts agree? To make it more “authentic”, write about an event that you each didn’t witness in person i.e. ask other people about it. Chances are that the accounts will differ widely, but you’ll all remember that Bob ran around with a lampshade on his head.
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
-the empty tomb, over which is built the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, is and has been the greatest shrine and pilgrimage destination in history, since the earliest days of the Church, and the erection of the first Church on the site during the reign of Constantine, the first time it was permitted to do so. It has been one of the greatest pilgrimage destinations during all times when pilgrimage to the Holy Land was possible for Christians (as it was not during most of the centuries of Muslim domination, except for the brief periods when it was held by the Crusaders).
 
“Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus expelled them from Rome”–Suetonius, (Clau., xxv). He wrote from the last 1st and early 2nd century. he was a Roman historian
 
1.** If Jesus rose**, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
Your profile states you are Catholic. Therefore you should not be asking IF Jesus rose because you know he did rise.
 
What’s even more of a head-scratcher, IMO, is the fact that Josephus actively chronicled the reign of Herod, but somehow “missed” the slaughter of all the infant boys in Judea at Herod’s command. Josephus was no fan of Herod and described events of Herod’s reign in great detail generally, so it’s odd that he would’ve overlooked something like this.
Yes, it becomes odd when one - for whatever reason - decides to give more credibility to Josephus, over and above the Gospel writers.

placido
 
Yes, it becomes odd when one - for whatever reason - decides to give more credibility to Josephus, over and above the Gospel writers.
That’s not the problem. The problem is going from “Josephus didn’t record X” to “X didn’t happen because if did Josephus would’ve recorded it”. The first is a statement, the accuracy of which can be checked. The second is an invalid argument from silence.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
  • the other reference to Jesus (where Josephus mentions “James, brother of Jesus” in a rather offhand way), is normally considered to be genuine.
Yeah, this seems to be the passage that even most atheists recognize as probably genuine. Even many atheists who are very aggressive in their atheism and think the case for Christianity is exceedingly weak (such as Matt Dillahunty and the guy who wrote Rejection of Pascal’s Wager) think that this passage is authentic. I think this is the best piece of evidence that Jesus existed. Of course many historians back then relied on 3rd-hand accounts, so it’s possible that this only shows that if Jesus was a myth, the myth developed before Josephus wrote that passage. Still, I think that this passage does provide good evidence, even if not definitive, that someone named Jesus existed.
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
Church of the Holy Sepulchre is, according to Sacred Tradition, the site of Jesus’ tomb: holysepulchre.com
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
Luke 2
1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole world should be enrolled.
2 This was the first enrollment, when Quirinius was governor of Syria.


Remember when scholars scoffed at Luke because they assumed he was naming cities in Acts that didn’t exist, than archeologists found evidence of those cities’ existence? The same goes for the dating of Jesus’ birth. I put my trust in God, who works in mysterious ways (the atheists call this a cop out, I call it an acknowledgment of God’s greatness!).
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
Besides the Evangelists, there are references to Jesus by pagans and Jews and we have relics of Jesus. Such historians would include the likes of Tacitus and Lucian. Such relics would include the crown of thorns, pieces of the cross, the seemless garment, the tomb where He was laid, and the spot where He was born in Bethlehem. Forgeries of His relics exist as well, as do forgeries of histories of Jesus and of memoirs of biblical figures, yet lies do nothing but speed up the recovery of the truth.
 
Yet another thread opened by lemonbeam who again has then refused to participate in the discussions.
 
  1. If Jesus rose, why does nobody know where the empty tomb lay? Even Paul was ignorant. Yet the empty tomb should have become the greatest shrine or pilgrimage in history.
There are two candidates for Jesus’ tomb. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre site seems the most likely.

In Jesus’ time, things pertaining to dead bodies were very “treif” – “un-kosher.” So, there was a story in the Early Church that Peter told Judas Thaddeus to give Jesus’ shroud to Abgar of Edessa, a Gentile, because the miraculous cloth was “treif” to Jews. The same would have applied to the tomb: Being a place where a dead body had lain, the tomb, to the early Christians, who viewed themselves as Jewish, would not have been a place about which there would have been great enthusiasm – it wouldn’t have been regarded as a place to throw a picnic, so to speak. So, knowledge of the tomb began to fall by the wayside, not being a celebrated thing, but rather something “dirty” to early Jewish Christians.
  1. Moreover, the four Gospel accounts of the reusrrection are highly contradictory in their details, for example in the women’s reactions and immediate actions.
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
The facts of Jesus’ life are encased within accounts written in accord with histories of the time – they are not masterpieces of historical accuracy, down to the jot and tittle level. The writers then felt free to embellish accounts for secondary editorial reasons.

The Holy Spirit’s inspiration impacted the gospels more subtly than what today’s fundamentalistically-inclined Bible readers demand of God. Many of today’s Christians don’t want to hear that the Bible is something other than literally true, period. Internally, they “require” God to write an absolutely simple, straightforward, uncontradictory set of gospels. They think that this makes things “simple.”

In fact, the opposite occurs. Reading the gospels as literally true generates huge mountains of difficulties.

What in fact occured is that the true facts of Jesus’ life are set forth in the gospels, as well as facts that aren’t true, added for this or that reason – sometimes, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! Why? Answer: To teach perfectly correct theology, not just historical fact.

For example: Luke says that Jesus was wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger. Was He? Who cares? Why is that my attitude?

Because when Jesus is wrapped-up in swaddling clothes, He is made to look like a dead body wrapped-up in a burial shroud. And when He is laid in a manger, a feeding trough, He is in effect being put onto a kind of “dinner plate.”

Jesus’ actual sacrificed dead body being offered as food on a dinner plate.

Where did you hear that before?

How about in the theology of the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

Do you see what I mean? The Holy Spirit put that there! Not bad!
  1. Do any contemporary historians mention Jesus? And are the Later references by Josephus, held by scholars to be early church frauds/manipulations? Are the other references to Jesus mostly oblique and without historical details?
The gospels themselves are as close to contemporary histories as we can get. We have to remember that a rebel nation invested by brutal Roman rulers, who subsequently reduced the area to ashes in the Jewish rebellions against the Romans in the first two centuries after Christ’s death, is not exactly the place where history writing is going to thrive. Instead, it’s going to be dead.

Thus, the sources are all post-contemporary.

Opponents of historicity feel that if they question a source, it should automatically be ignored. They question the gospels, so, ignore them! They question Josephus, so, ignore him!

They’ll do that to every single source.

My favorite source is the absolute last place one would expect to find Jesus validated: The earliest Talmudic writings! The references to Jesus are garbled, because the references were written in the Diaspora after Roman exile has badly damaged Jewish cultural memory, And, the references are to a man Whom the Jews regarded as an abomination, Christ the Second Person of the Trinity, so, they are not exactly favorable references. But, they are there.
 
Re. Jesus’ birth: The Gospel of Luke mentions the census taken by Quirinius when he was governor of Syria, as part of a census of the “whole world”. HOWEVER, Luke and Matthew date Jesus’ birth to the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC, nearly ten years before Quirinius became governor! Generally, Luke is assumed to be in error.
There are a couple explanations, one is that it was possible for a person to hold the same position at two separate times, there is archaeological evidence to support that See “Jesus the Messiah” here books.google.com/books?id=LyIZrALH-mQC&pg=PA53&dq=Quirinius#v=onepage&q=Quirinius&f=false on page 54

There is another explanation here books.google.com/books?id=ZavVZE0xIq8C&pg=PA23&dq=Quirinius#v=onepage&q=Quirinius&f=false
 
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