I hoping to discover a consensus among sola scriptura advocates

  • Thread starter Thread starter joe370
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don’t remember as a Catholic (41 years now), growing up that the Church taught you could go to Hell if one didn’t abstain from meat. Can someone point out to me exactly when this was taught and an exact quote from the Church itself. Thanks.

MJ
 
I don’t remember as a Catholic (41 years now), growing up that the Church taught you could go to Hell if one didn’t abstain from meat. Can someone point out to me exactly when this was taught and an exact quote from the Church itself. Thanks.

MJ
off topic : but here ya go,

jimmyakin.org/2004/04/meat_on_lenten_.html

“A common question at this time of year is whether or not deliberately violating the law of abstinence is a mortal sin.** It is**”

“Thus one must substantially observe the law of abstinence on such days, and the obligation to do so is a grave one, meaning that it satisfies the condition of grave matter required for mortal sin.** If one knowingly and deliberately fails in this obligation then one has committed mortal sin.”**

I would guess some Cathoics believe that is true and some do not…

Now IF you don’t believe that " deliberately violating the law of abstinence is a mortal sin", is that your private interpretation?
 
Hi Jon
Does it really matter. The first point is they keep changing the rules about it so somebody today can do something other people are supposedly in hell for. If it was that serious the rules would not change. Remember God is unchangable. Second it’s not biblical at all and third they claim if you don’t follow you are in danger of hell fire. That’s pretty serious stuff.
Yes, I think it does matter. I don’t know enough about the nuances of Catholic disciplines, however.
Posted by Joe370
Jericho, I agree with you; the idea that if one eats meat on a certain day, is going to hell, is not biblical. Nor is sola scriptura or sola fida, 2 things to which you subscribe, I think?
Well, Joe, I’d argue about sola fide not being biblical :D, but regards sola scriptura, it is not a doctrine. In either case, if what Jericho states above is true, it’s apples and oranges, at least from a Lutheran perspective. I don’t believe many Lutherans, much less the Lutheran Church, claim that Catholics are hell-bound because they reject sola fide or sola scriptura.

Jon

Jon
 
hey Jon

What I meant was: *“faith without works is dead” *and all that good stuff from the book of James. Clearly we can’t work our way into heaven. Jesus is the only way and the only reason why we can have eternal life. 👍
Yes, I think it does matter. I don’t know enough about the nuances of Catholic disciplines, however.

Well, Joe, I’d argue about sola fide not being biblical :D, but regards sola scriptura, it is not a doctrine. In either case, if what Jericho states above is true, it’s apples and oranges, at least from a Lutheran perspective. I don’t believe many Lutherans, much less the Lutheran Church, claim that Catholics are hell-bound because they reject sola fide or sola scriptura.

Jon
 
Jericho, I agree with you; the idea that if one eats meat on a certain day, is going to hell, is not biblical. Nor is sola scriptura or sola fida, 2 things to which you subscribe, I think? This was something that bothered me a lot as a former on the fence protestant, but not enough to prevent me from belonging to the church founded by God. Who wouldn’t want to belong to the church founded by God, in spite of a discipline imposed by His church leaders that seems to disturb our sensibilities?

It was not a teaching of Jesus Christ or His apostles, or of the CC. It was a discipline that has to do with binding and loosing. Do you believe that any one church in the world today, as per Matthew, has the authority to bind and loose or has Matthew 16 and 18 been abrogated? A Christian who violated the apostolic teaching in Acts 15 sinned not because the eating of meat was wrong but because he disobeyed a commandment of the Church. I wonder what wolud have happened to those you disobey the apostles commandments and continued to eat food that was polluted by idols, anyway? The following biblical commandment imposed by the apostles, seems a bit harsh to me, and yet look what happened:

It’s about the binding and loosing given to Jesus’ church by Jesus. The reason Friday abstinence was imposed in the first place, back them, was very biblical, with the exception of the hell part. The Church recognized that, since meat is a major part of most meals served in most places, and since meat is usually the most valued or expensive part of a meal, abstinence from meat on Fridays is a good way for Christians to unite themselves more closely to the sufferings of their savior Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:16-17, 1 Pet. 2:21) by denying themselves something they enjoy. Abstinence from meat would have been a sacrifice which would have united them in penance and strengthened the solidarity of the Church through mild suffering. It’s also a good form of mortification, which disciplines the soul and strengthens its resistance to concupiscence. Paul practiced and recommended mortification: *“I drive my body and train it, for fear that after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” *(1 Cor. 9:27) However, I do agree with you about the whole hell thing; it seems that they went overboard. Surely the CC leaders can overzealously and wrongly sanction a discipline, but they are protected from themselves by the power of the holy spirit, who is forever guiding them into all truth, from altering the teachings passed on to the apostles who then passed on those teachings and so on…Celibacy in the priesthood is an example of a discipline that could be altered by another Pope, but apostolic doctrine cannot be altered. God is unchangeable but church discipline is not.
Hi Joe thanks for your candor. You are at odds with the cc by taking that position. You are now in danger of hell fire yourself for challenging your churches authority. And yes I do subscribe to those faith is the first requirement of salvation. Faith without works is dead. But works can never save, we are saved apart from works. Only the words contained in scripture are necessary for faith and salvation.

I don’t think binding and loosing is a reference to manmade rules. How ever I don’t know why someone would be interested in making manmade rules and calling them equal to the commands of God. Mark 7:5-8 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”
6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

Your reference to Acts 5:1 is not about an apostolic decree being disobeyed but rather lying to the Holy Spirit about a gift that was given freely.

If we want to identify with Christ’s suffering then follow Him and His Word. Believe me there is more real suffering when you truly live for Him than any manmade discipline.
 
The church believes only the magesterium is entrusted with biblical truth. Why not just have the church write an instruction book so you will know what to think or believe without being in error apart from scripture? This is not an insult I mean this in all honesty. Personally this kind of thinking frustrates me.
The instruction book would fall into the same pitfall as scripture. As the language and culture slowly change the implied meaning of the book would change and thus you would have a changing truth. The advantage to oral tradition is that while language and tradition change the understanding does not. Meaning; if one man knows the truth and he teaches it to the student the language of the time and culture of the time is equally understood by both teacher and student and the truth is accurately communicated. This kind of precision is fundamentally impossible for scripture in the world that God has created…
 
The instruction book would fall into the same pitfall as scripture. As the language and culture slowly change the implied meaning of the book would change and thus you would have a changing truth. The advantage to oral tradition is that while language and tradition change the understanding does not. Meaning; if one man knows the truth and he teaches it to the student the language of the time and culture of the time is equally understood by both teacher and student and the truth is accurately communicated. This kind of precision is fundamentally impossible for scripture in the world that God has created…
No matter what form knowledge is transmitted in it is still subject to interpretation. It comes down to whether people can read and understand for themselves what God has to say to them. Or they need somebody to tell them what to think.
 
The instruction book would fall into the same pitfall as scripture. As the language and culture slowly change the implied meaning of the book would change and thus you would have a changing truth. The advantage to oral tradition is that while language and tradition change the understanding does not. Meaning; if one man knows the truth and he teaches it to the student the language of the time and culture of the time is equally understood by both teacher and student and the truth is accurately communicated. This kind of precision is fundamentally impossible for scripture in the world that God has created…
No matter what form knowledge is transmitted in it is still subject to interpretation. It comes down to whether people can read and understand for themselves what God has to say to them. Or they need somebody to tell them what to think.
 
=jericho777;7190798]Hi Joe thanks for your candor. You are at odds with the cc by taking that position. You are now in danger of hell fire yourself for challenging your churches authority.
Lighten up dude…🙂
And yes I do subscribe to those faith is the first requirement of salvation. Faith without works is dead. But works can never save, we are saved apart from works. Only the words contained in scripture are necessary for faith and salvation.
Agreed…
I don’t think binding and loosing is a reference to manmade rules. How ever I don’t know why someone would be interested in making manmade rules and calling them equal to the commands of God. Mark 7:5-8 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”
6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
You are your own binder and looser, based on your interpretation of your bible - correct, or is the church to which you belong?
If we want to identify with Christ’s suffering then follow Him and His Word. Believe me there is more real suffering when you truly live for Him than any manmade discipline.
Since you seem to believe that the CC is a man-made church, perhaps you could direct me to the church founded by God? 👍 You seem to be implying that I don’t live for Jesus…Strange…I follow Jesus and his word…I don’t belong to a man-made church; I belong to the church founded by God. Believe it; don’t believe it; makes no difference to me…👍

By the way, what does eating meat on Friday have to do with the OP???
 
hey Jon

What I meant was: *“faith without works is dead” *and all that good stuff from the book of James. Clearly we can’t work our way into heaven. Jesus is the only way and the only reason why we can have eternal life. 👍
Agreed. While we cannot work our way to Heaven, good works are required of us.

Jon
 
You are your own binder and looser, based on your interpretation of your bible - correct, or is the church to which you belong?
My point was not binding and loosing it was Jesus saying manmade rules were a sin and the sign of false religion in Mark 7:5-8 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”
6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
By the way, what does eating meat on Friday have to do with the OP???
Nothing it was to show a manmade rule passing itself off a command of God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top