I like this forum because it is what I learned in 4th grade

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

The largest Christian denomination in the United States, is Catholic.

So now Americal is all Christians? What a nieve statement. Catholics, including CINO’s are 22% of the population. Hardly a majority.

So say you. But I’ve worked in many states and I’ve never been more than 15 minutes away from a Catholic Church in any big city. The only time I’ve been farther than that has been when I’ve worked in rural areas and even there, I can’t remember being more than a half hour away.

So, I sincerely doubt your claim.

Distance to a Catholic church doesn’t mean you will find a Catholic neighborhood. What an odd assertion. My parents are faithful, but their town doesn’t have a church. They do live in a rural area. There is no parish in my in-law’s town, either. So are you accusing every one of dwelling in a town without a church “bad”? Both travel 30 to 40 minutes to Mass. Obviously, your rural areas are different.

You live in a city where there are no Catholic Churches? Why would a good Catholic choose to do something like that?

Wow. This is the biggest line of bull and judgment. Granted, I don’t live in a city, I live in a town…but really, now good Catholics must live in town with a church? Just wow.

You didn’t educate yourself, so you blame those who tried to educate you.
You don’t live near a Church, but you don’t blame yourself for not making the proximity of a Catholic Church a criteria for your search.

Yeah. I travel a half hour for Mass and other church events. I’m a homeschool mom who uses Seton. I also took care of my (not my actual) niece (child of a single mom) and homeschooled her FOR FREE. I just don’t take my responsibilities seriously.

Sure.

Just because I was taught badly in my youth, just because I see the same books being used and hate it, doesn’t mean that I haven’t taken responsibility. I wasn’t taught about transubstantiation. I wasn’t taught about Adoration. Or the Rosary. Or much of the Bible. Period. There’s no way around it. You can call me an irresponsible liar all you want, but that doesn’t change my experience, and it doesn’t change the fact that a majority of Catholics today face the same thing.

You are lost in your own little world. Aiming to make those who don’t know into people to blame for their own ignorance, despite the fact they have no way to know otherwise.

 

[JimG]

Apparently my opinion carried little weight. That’s okay. I’m not upset. It was a long time ago and I only used the anecdote as an example of how some religious instruction materials are worse than others. Yes, it’s only my opinion! And yes, some instruction materials are better, and some are worse. And it is my opinion that bad catechetical materials and poor catechesis is a disservice to students.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

But it’s YOUR FAULT FOR NOT TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Don’t you get that?
Don’t you?
Don’t you?

Jim, it’s all your fault for not being taught?

(nevermind you’re actually upset for those who had no control of what they were being taught. It’s going to be THEIR responsibility to understand their faith, don’tcha know?

 

[JimG]

Absolutely it’s my fault! Having recited the Confiteor for years I’m accustomed to taking personal responsibility! Mea maxima culpa!

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Absolutely it’s my fault! Having recited the Confiteor for years I’m accustomed to taking personal responsibility! Mea maxima culpa!

Jim have YOU ever lived in a town without a church.

I heard “good” Catholics don’t do that.

I mean how neglectful to your faith could you be…I mean…really.

 

[Crusaderbear]

I slipped away for a long time, I blame only me. I never looked into other religions, I stayed catholic, but just not a good one. When I realized I was missing something, I came back. I believe that is all God expects of me. There are no points for lifelong attendance (and if there are, good for those who feel they earned them!) God just wants us to accept his love and return it.

 

[De_Maria]

So now Americal is all Christians? …

Who said that? I said that the largest Christian denomination is Catholic.

I have to wonder why you’re changing the subject and producing all these straw men arguments? The only reason I can arrive at is that you have felt that your original arguments have been proven false. So, now you’re literally pulling at straws to justify yourself.

Let me show you a well kept secret:

Most of the figures are taken from the CIA Factbook or PEW Research Center Surveys. According to the CIA Factbook and the Pew Research Center, the five countries with the largest number of Catholics are, in decreasing order of population, Brazil, Mexico, the Philippines, the United States, and Italy.

America has more Catholics than Italy. That’s astounding.

But anyway, you keep on living in your little naive bubble of “No one will help me”. I’m kicking your dust off my feet.

God bless you! over and out!

 

[De_Maria]

Apparently my opinion carried little weight. That’s okay. I’m not upset. It was a long time ago and I only used the anecdote as an example of how some religious instruction materials are worse than others. Yes, it’s only my opinion! And yes, some instruction materials are better, and some are worse. And it is my opinion that bad catechetical materials and poor catechesis is a disservice to students.

Who could disagree with that? Certainly not I.

Thanks for the discussion.

God bless you.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

It’s not a “straw man” to bring up the relevant numbers per capita. It gives one a better idea. It’s disingenuous to say that Catholics are the biggest Christian group because they still only make up 22% of the population. Again, that included CINO’s.

You simply are trying to skew the data to your beliefs. Is it easier for Catholics to find each other than say, Baptists? Sure. But with only 22% of Catholics in the US, it is unlikely one will find a neighborhood full of them unless it’s around a planned community. That’s less than 1 in 4.

Arguing that there are fewer Catholics in Italy is completely misleading. There’s just over 300 MILLION people in the US, with my above figure of 22% being Catholic, atleast in name. There are only 60 million people in ALL of Italy, with 87% being Catholic.

In short, you’d have less people in Italy if you combined Flordia and Texas…so duh. There’s going to be less Catholics in Italy. There are less people in Italy.

For what it’s worth

Brazil -64.5% Catholic
Mexico- 81% Catholic
Philippines - 80% Catholic

Would you like some more data?

I will give you the caveat–Catholocism is stronger in Hispanic America–at 55% or 60% depending on if you count American Citizens or Citizens+perminant residents. However, this gain is balancing a much steeper loss in numbers among other ethnic groups…so the 22% overall figure may not represent reality in non-latino areas.

Being hispanic, I suppose, and staying within hispanic neighborhoods, I would see how you could think that America is more Catholic than it really is.

It made me very curious. I’m not going to tell you my state, but according to data it falls at 17% Catholic (as of last year) and steeply falling, down from 20% just 11 years ago. Admitadly, we do have very few hispanics in our state.

So, please, try and tell me again how I’m somehow not taking “personal responsibility” by not living in a town with a church or in a neighborhood with other Catholics.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

So taking responsibility means forcing others to capitulate?

Just now I left a conversation with a person that believes that females are subservient to males because God made them so…

We must apply reason to arguments not just emotions!

My two older brothers left the Church because they applied emotions… different situations but same outcome!

Addressing the lack of catechizes does not mean, ‘get the rebels’ or shove it down their ‘throats.’

It is the same degeneration that is happening in the US’s culture. Hollowood’s infestation has created a culture where people cannot think past a second to put two words together; they have stopped using correct grammar and the existing vocabulary in an attempt to seem more “modern” than their predecessors… people claim superiority because they can explode in 0.1 second or because they can use profanity on every other word that they utter or because they can shout over their rivals…

The culture can return to a more cultured level.

The Catholic culture can return to a more devout and spiritual level.

But as the saying goes, ‘it takes two…’

The Church will never be able to force people to grow spirituality–it is against God’s Will to force conversion; even and in spite of the fact that Christians are Called to grow (Be Holy) in sanctity, the Church cannot coerce or compel them to do so. But the Church can be that force that offers correction and education.

Remaining silent when issues are flying left to right or pretending that ‘things will get better on their own’ will not help an iota.

The New Evangelization (which in reality is nothing new since it has been going on for years now) must include missions to the “Catholic Believers”–Evangelization, Teaching, and Correcting.

There was a time when parents and God-parents were an effective means of support for the Faithful Catholics; they were trained in their Faith and their obligations to the next generations of Catholics… this has eroded to the (maybe) five seasons of Catholicism: Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, and Burial–sadly, even these remnants of the Faith are not always actualized as “Catholics” are lured away to other faith base groups or even leave the Church altogether.

The Church’s culture went from a fully dependency to a self-dependency–social changes filling in the gaps.

There has always been pockets of devout Catholics throughout the ages (I think it comes from God’s Determination, ‘I will Keep a Remnant’)… Mom, at the age of six fully responded to God’s Call in her devotion; sadly, these days God’s Call is muffled more and more by man’s desire to follow the way of the world.

‘Building it and they will come’ cannot continue to be the modus operandi.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

And it is my opinion that bad catechetical materials and poor catechesis is a disservice to students.

Hi, Jim!

I fully concur!

This is my complete argument.

Mom was a devout Catholic, she brought me up in the Faith–as every person in the world I became independent… but her efforts in teaching me the Faith continue to have relevance in my relationship with God–my responsibility with living and defending the Faith.

Sadly, due to a combination of things, the devout Catholics becoming an extinct species as one important gauge, we have return to the illiteracy of the middle ages–yes, people have a greater understanding and use of grammar, not their knowledge and understanding of the Faith has not improved with age (granted there are scores of Catholics that have embraced the Faith and have made strides in learning and defending the Faith… but they are outnumbered by those in the fringes).

Catechesis must be a tool to hone the mind and spirit not just a means to be claimed as an accreditation of “done that.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

…you’ve been poorly Catechized; and even the self-help leaves much too much wanting:

2:46 They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously; 2:47 they praised God and were looked up to by everyone. Day by day the Lord added to their community those destined to be saved. (Acts)

…even from her inception, the Church was called into a community of Believers who would gather together for Worship; Breaking of Bread was not a happenstance (like my dead aunt used to claim, ‘when inspired’) occurrence.

We give ourselves the liberties that we desire; it is man’s design to offer to God the left-overs and claim that that’s God’s Design.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, De Maria!

So taking responsibility means forcing others to capitulate?

You said that, not me.

For me, taking responsibility for your circumstances in life, means admitting that you have something to do with the outcomes in your life. In other words, your not just a victim of circumstances. If you don’t like something, you do something to change it.

Just now I left a conversation with a person that believes that females are subservient to males because God made them so…people claim superiority because they can explode in 0.1 second or because they can use profanity on every other word that they utter or because they can shout over their rivals…

I have no idea what you’re going on about there. It doesn’t seem to have any connection with this discussion.

The culture can return to a more cultured level.
The Catholic culture can return to a more devout and spiritual level.

No doubt. What’s the point? That it can happen by magic? That we don’t have to do anything in order to help things along?

But as the saying goes, ‘it takes two…’

to tango. But not everything takes two. Some things take only one and many things take more than two. So, what’s your point?

The Church will never be able to force people to grow spirituality–it is against God’s Will to force conversion; even and in spite of the fact that Christians are Called to grow (Be Holy) in sanctity, the Church cannot coerce or compel them to do so. But the Church can be that force that offers correction and education.

True. But I’m not advocating that anyone force anyone else to grow spiritually. I’m advocating that people take some responsibility for the problems in their life and also that they quit using the Church as a scapegoat for all their personal errors.

Remaining silent when issues are flying left to right or pretending that ‘things will get better on their own’ will not help an iota.

Agreed.

The New Evangelization…

As with some of the stuff I skipped above, I’m not sure what any of the last portion had to do with making people realize that they have more responsibility than anyone else with their circumstances in life and that blaming the Church for circumstances which they don’t like, is simply wrong.

Besides, I thought you had agreed with me on this point, earlier.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

…actually, you did state it; yes, the wording may have been different but I referenced your presentation (check your post).

…as it was coined once, ‘what we have here, is a failure to communicate.’

It is the Catholic Church, the Teacher, who has the greatest responsibility in making her voice (Doctrine–both on paper and live) known.

Catholics are just like any other herd animal… they follow the leader; when there’s none to lead they fall prey to the ravenous and insidious assaults of the devil.

The more that the Catholic Church cruises with the auto-blinders on the more that her children will fall pray.

Yes, as I have attempted to accredit you and your household, there are Catholics who have made the conscious choice to listen and respond to God’s Calling… these, sadly, are not in the millions; they are, as with Mom, a dying breed. For the many, it is, ‘follow your star/heart/conscience.’

The problem with that is that when a conscience is poorly or ineffectually instructed it will guide the follower to the wrong conclusions and “choices.”

While some people reason that, ‘let your conscience be your guide’ is gathered from Scriptures:

14:15 If you love me you will keep my commandments. 14:16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you for ever, 14:17 that Spirit of truth whom the world can never receive since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you. 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come back to you. 14:19 In a short time the world will no longer see me; but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 14:20 On that day you will understand that I am in my Father and you in me and I in you. 14:21 Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.’ (St. John)

I suspect that most people get their understanding from Pinocchio’s Blue Fairy; this of course comes from a different set of learning books–ones that adapts to social and financials whims.

I can understand why you do not follow my argument; you are set in the stronghold of belief that the individual can achieve for him/herself without the Church’s intervention. Sadly, it was Christ that set the Church as the means by which His Followers would conduct themselves. At her very inception there were thousands of devout people in Israel, only those who were found with the Twelve received the Holy Spirit. It was the Church, then, that imparted God’s Gift to the world. Her responsibility remains: edifying the Body of Christ!

I do understand your argument. Using the ineffectiveness of the Church as a catch all excuse is not right either. But just like we cannot rely on the “goodness” of man to sing “Kum ba yah” to heal the ills of the world we cannot rely on the pockets of Believers to properly propagate the Faith.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, De Maria!

…actually, you did state it; yes, the wording may have been different but I referenced your presentation (check your post).

Forcing others to capitulate? I’m certain I didn’t. If you claim that I did, you need to provide the quote.

…as it was coined once, ‘what we have here, is a failure to communicate.’

Perhaps.

It is the Catholic Church, the Teacher, who has the greatest responsibility in making her voice (Doctrine–both on paper and live) known.

True. But you fail to account for the fact that Catholic parents are members of that very same Church. And that Church says that parents bear the greatest responsibility in Teaching their children the Faith. That is also Doctrine on paper and is known. Since you are homeschooled, you should know that.

Catholics are just like any other herd animal… they follow the leader; when there’s none to lead they fall prey to the ravenous and insidious assaults of the devil.

The more that the Catholic Church cruises with the auto-blinders on the more that her children will fall pray.

This may be true, but it has nothing to do with the discussion we are having.

Yes, as I have attempted to accredit you and your household, there are Catholics who have made the conscious choice to listen and respond to God’s Calling… these, sadly, are not in the millions; they are, as with Mom, a dying breed. For the many, it is, ‘follow your star/heart/conscience.’

This is your bare assertion without evidence. Whether it is true or not, I don’t know. But it also has nothing to do with our present discussion.

The problem with that is that when a conscience is poorly or ineffectually instructed it will guide the follower to the wrong conclusions and “choices.”

True. But still nothing to do with the idea of taking personal responsibility for your actions.

Ok, since you are really not on topic, rather than spend a lot of time saying that you’re not on topic, I’ve skipped down to the place where you come closest to the topic of discussion.

While some people reason that, ‘let your conscience be your guide’ is gathered from Scriptures:
…I do understand your argument. Using the ineffectiveness of the Church as a catch all excuse is not right either.

Agreed.

But just like we cannot rely on the “goodness” of man to sing “Kum ba yah” to heal the ills of the world we cannot rely on the pockets of Believers to properly propagate the Faith.

Agreed. But not on the topic of taking personal responsibility for your actions or lack thereof.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

Here’s the quote:

What would you have the Church do, force the faith down people’s throats? Hang a few rebels to make an example?

Yes, it is true that I worded it differently, but the gist is the same–mine take is less visual but more colorful.

As I’ve stated before we are not communicating–this is simply a circular argument (‘I say; you say’); the best to do is lay it down.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, De Maria!

Here’s the quote:

What would you have the Church do, force the faith down people’s throats? Hang a few rebels to make an example?

Yes, it is true that I worded it differently, but the gist is the same–mine take is less visual but more colorful.

As I’ve stated before we are not communicating–this is simply a circular argument (‘I say; you say’); the best to do is lay it down.

Maran atha!

Angel

No. You claimed that I had stated that the Church should force people to believe.

Hi, De Maria!

…actually, you did state it;

There’s a big difference between asking a question and making a statement.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

No.

What I stated was that owning up to her Responsibility of Educating her members cannot be seen as what you’ve described:

What would you have the Church do, force the faith down people’s throats? Hang a few rebels to make an example?

Please, don’t get offended or feel offended.

This argument is far removed from any edification. We are clearly not on the same page; and our vocabulary serves only to distance us from each other and the issue.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, De Maria!

No.

What I stated was that owning up to her Responsibility of Educating her members cannot be seen as what you’ve described:

I don’t think you’ve understood the discussion. I was talking about her taking some responsibility for her own religious education.

Please, don’t get offended or feel offended.

I’m not offended. I’m just making sure that you don’t put words in my mouth which I didn’t say.

This argument is far removed from any edification. We are clearly not on the same page; and our vocabulary serves only to distance us from each other and the issue.

That is obvious to me. You are mixing too many issues which are not on topic for us to be on the same page.

So, thanks for the discussion and God bless you.