I need non-biblical and non-christian proof of Jesus

[svoboda]

JezCat:

The gospels are generally accepted to be written: Mark in the 70’s, Matthew and Luke in the 80’s, and John in the 90’s. So that’s between 30+ to 60+ years after Jesus’ death,

40-60, but that’s not important. It is within the lifetime, but what makes you think that these records were read by all including those who could have refuted the writings? Back then there was no printing press, and chances are people couldn’t read anyway.

I have read that gospes etc. start to be quoted by apologists such as Justin Martyr in the second century, might it be evidence that it took that long to make enough copies and pass them around?

People back then believed in all sorts of things, why not Jesus? Look at this:

infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html

Beyond the bible, the historian Josephus supplies some insights. Writing toward the end of the first century, himself an eye-witness of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, he tells us that the region was filled with “cheats and deceivers claiming divine inspiration” (Jewish War, 2.259-60; Jewish Antiquities, 20.167), entrancing the masses and leading them like sheep, usually to their doom. **The most successful of these “tricksters” appears to be “the Egyptian” who led a flock of 30,000 believers around Palestine ** (Jewish War, 2.261-2; Paul is mistaken for him by a Roman officer in Acts 21:38). **This fellow even claimed he could topple the walls of Jerusalem with a single word ** (Jewish Antiquities, 20.170), yet it took a massacre at the hands of Roman troops to finally instill doubt in his followers.

**Twenty years later, a common weaver named Jonathan would attract a mob of the poor and needy, promising to show them many signs and portents ** (Jewish War, 7.437-8). Again, it took military intervention to disband the movement. Josephus also names a certain **Theudas, another “trickster” who gathered an impressive following in Cyrene around 46 A.D., claiming he was a prophet and could part the river Jordan ** (Jewish Antiquities, 20.97). This could be the same Theudas mentioned in Acts 5:36. Stories like these also remind us of the faithful following that Simon was reported to have had in Acts 8:9-11, again showing how easy it was to make people believe you had “the power of god” at your disposal. Jesus was not unique in that respect.

**Miracles were also a dime a dozen in this era. The biographer Plutarch, a contemporary of Josephus, engages in a lengthy digression to prove that a statue of Tyche did not really speak in the early Republic ** (Life of Coriolanus 37.3). **He claims it must have been a hallucination inspired by the deep religious faith of the onlookers, since there were, he says, too many reliable witnesses to dismiss the story as an invention ** (38.1-3). He even digresses further to explain why other miracles such as weeping or bleeding–even moaning–statues could be explained as natural phenomena, showing a modest but refreshing degree of skeptical reasoning that would make the Amazing Randi proud.

…

Miraculous healings were also commonplace. Suetonius, another biographer writing a generation after Plutarch, reports that even the emperor Vespasian once cured the blind and lame (Life of Vespasian 7.13; this “power” being attributed to the god Serapis–incidentally the Egyptian counterpart to Asclepius; cf. also Tacitus, Histories 4.81). Likewise, statues with healing powers were common attractions for sick people of this era. Lucian mentions the famous healing powers of a statue of Polydamas, an athlete, at Olympia, as well as the statue of Theagenes at Thasos (Council of the Gods 12). Both are again mentioned by Pausanias, in his “tour guide” of the Roman world (6.5.4-9, 11.2-9).

But above all these, the “pagans” had Asclepius, their own healing savior, centuries before, and after, the ministry of Christ. Surviving testimonies to his influence and healing power throughout the classical age are common enough to fill a two-volume book (Edelstein and Edelstein, Asclepius: A Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies, in two volumes, 1945–entries 423-450 contain the most vivid testimonials).** Of greatest interest are the inscriptions set up for those healed at his temples. These give us almost first hand testimony, more reliable evidence than anything we have for the miracles of Jesus, of the blind, the lame, the mute, even the victims of kidney stones, paralytics, and one fellow with a spearhead stuck in his jaw (see the work cited above, p. 232), all being cured by this pagan “savior.” And this testimony goes on for centuries. Inscriptions span from the 4th century B.C. to the 3rd century A.D. and later, all over the Roman Empire. ** Clearly, the people of this time were quite ready to believe such tales. They were not remarkable tales at all.

 

[svoboda]

svoboda,

Do you also deny other historical writings based on your “unbiased” standards? Consider Homer’s Iliad, which was the bible of the ancient Greeks. I’ll quote Bruce M. Metzger PH.D., “There are fewer than 650 Greek manuscripts of it today. They are from the 2nd and 3rd century A.D. on. When you consider that Homer composed his epic about 800 B.C. you can see there’s a very lengthy gap.”

But I don’t believe the Illiad to be the word of God or anything else. And if two billion people were presently basing their lives on what is written in the Illiad I might be criticizing it too. As it stands, it’s something English majors read along with Shakespeare. It’s not something I know very much about, is it even supposed to be a historical work?

The New Testament has more than 5,000 Greek manuscripts that have been discovered and cataloged. Around 5,664 ** to be exact! Not to mention the 8,000 to 10,000 Latin Vulgate ** manuscripts, and the 8,000 Ethiopic, Slavic, and Armenian. In all, there are about 24,000 manuscripts in existence.

I’m sure there are plenty of copies of the Quran, that doesn’t make it true.

Said the late F.F. Bruce, eminent professor at the University of Manchester, England, and author of The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?: “There is no body of ancient literature in the wolrd which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.”

But did he say why he thinks they are reliable? That’s what I"m interested in.

 

[svoboda]

JezCat:

Blomberg also notes that Acts “cannot be dated any later than A.D. 62”…because “Acts ends abruptly probably because Paul was put to death.” “Since Acts is the second of a two-part work, we know the first part–the gospel of Luke–must have been written earlier than that. And since Luke incorporates parts of the gospel of Mark, that means Mark is even earlier. If you allow maybe a year for each of those, you end up with Mark written no later than about A.D. 60, maybe even the late 50’s. If Jesus was put to death in A.D. 30 or 33, we’re talking about a maximum gap of thirty years or so.”

Blomberg follows, “Historically speaking, especially compared with Alexander the Great, that’s like a news flash!”

That depends on who is doing the dating, doesn’t it? earlychristianwritings.com/

Skeptical sources date everything much later, sometimes well into the second century.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

QUOTE=svoboda]There is consensus that the Josephus passage as it is written is an interpolation. In it, Josephus, a Jew, basically proclaims in a somewhat fanatical tone that Jesus was God and the messiah etc. Read it for yourself

I thought I made it clear that part of the text is in question. However, most historians do agree that Josephus did write about Jesus. This was a direct response to the thread

Might Josephus have mentioned a Jesus? Maybe. But maybe he said “and there was Jesus, a wise rabbi, he had some followers” who knows what he actually said. Either way, Josephus was born after Jesus left this earth, so his testimony is hardly first hand.

I’m not sure why you expect first hand documents from people who didn’t believe in Christ. They weren’t exactly in the age where they could type up an email to document the information. What I would have expected, if anything, might have been some documentation of the “fraud” of Jesus. Like someone writing down “oh those Christians believe that Christ died and rose from the dead, but don’t believe it. He’s dead and this is where his tomb is…”

Such as?

Such as the Pool of Bethsada, the Well of Jacob, the stone in the Roman Theatre with Pilates name on it, etc. I am not saying that this proves anything about Jesus, however, it does show the historical accuracy of the NT.

Read the gospels chronologically: Mark, Matthew/Luke, John. You can virtually see the myth develop. There are about 20 years between Mark and John.

Read Paul, he wrote 50AD onward. Does he quote the historical Jesus? Does he mention where Jesus lived, who he talked to, what kinds of miracles her performed?

Sorry, I don’t see myth. Just different perspectives. As far as the Epistles of Paul… they weren’t intended to be a historical record of Jesus. Paul wrote those letters as specific responses to situations in the fledgling church.

 

[Liberian]

svoboda,

I have to ask, what exactly are you looking for? If you want first-hand reports, you will have to look in the Gospels; anybody who wrote a first-hand report was so convinced by the facts that he converted to Christianity. You will not find a non-Christian first-hand account.

If you were to apply your standard to other historical events, we would have to throw out most–or all–of ancient history. In the New Testament we have accounts that were written by eyewitnesses, arguably before 70 AD (when the Temple was destroyed), and with extant manuscripts from a century later. No other event in history comes even close to the quality and quantity of the documentation–the battle of Arbela, the Roman civil wars, nothing. Not even the Battle of Hastings, a thousand years later, can match the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus in its evidence.

svoboda:

I recall reading that a solar eclipse happened in 29 AD that would have appeared as a partial eclipse in Jerusalem.

Speaking as an amateur astronomer, I can state flatly that the solar eclipse theory is hogwash. The crucifixion happened at the Passover, which took place at the full moon. The moon was on the other side of the earth from the sun.

• Liberian

 

[ReformedCatholic]

jay29:

I am in a debate with pagans and agnostics. I need any proof other than those I listed. Here is what I am facing:

“I stand by my point. Jesus is strictly a MYTHOLOGICAL figure, and I dare you to proove me otherwise with facts and evidence, not quotes from the bible or faith pushing.”

Any help would be appreciated.

My approach would be a little different. I would say “perhaps you’re right. Maybe Jesus was just a mythological figure.” But then I would ask “would a mere mythological figure have had the impact on the world and history that He has had?”

The fact that Christ’s message has prevailed over 2000 years and now has over 2 billion followers suggests to me that there is more to this than mere myth. Myths typically come and go. Christ is here to stay.

 

[Darrel]

Just ask them to name one ancient carpenter born in poverty who altered the entire planets structure and future history for over 2000 years after being executed by the Roman empire. Then ask them to prove that the universe is self created without including scientific opinion. It’s interesting that people will demand proof when they have none of there own. Best bet is to advise them to ask God for the proof they want. Put the challenge to them by saying “hey if there is no God then what are you afraid of?”

-D

 

[JezCat]

svoboda,

I doubt any references I could give would make any difference. But I do respect your right to reject them. Some people might see these references as genuine and others simply pass them off as heresay, but I felt compelled to at least make them available.

Let me ask you a question. If Jesus never existed, then what about his apostles and disciples? Simon Peter was crucified because of his faith and Paul beheaded. Did they exist or are they part of the tale as well?

If Jesus’ life was only made up or exaggerated then why isn’t there any written opposition to these supposed fallacies, especially from the Jews and Romans? I mean, after all, the story of Jesus was rather widespread and growing everyday. The only evidence I’ve seen supports the existence of the Christ. And what about all those people who gave up everything, including their lives, because of their faith? This doesn’t happen because of some rumor does it?

On a personal note, the most compelling evidence of Christ’s existence for me is the change within myself. Who I am now is not me, I am not myself, the things I do and feel aren’t anything I know. I think this change within Christians is all the proof we need. Unfortunately, others can’t feel this for themselves apart from Christ. They can only see Christ in us.

So I look back through history and see those who have lived out their faith in Jesus, even upon torture until the very end and I see Christ. I see something and someone that is not of them, like within me. Something not visable to the eye but can still be seen by men. That’s the greatest proof of Jesus we can ever show the world.

 

[RikasAngel]

Hello All,

There is as much evidence for the existence of Christ as there is for the existence of Socrates and William Shakespeare. Though we have accounts and writtings attributted to them, there is still reasonable doubt they existed. Interestingly, many scholars would never dismiss the existence of Socrates or Shakespeare; and many, in fact to not deny Christ’s existence. Many do try to de-supernatualize him, yet few serious scholars deny his existence as a person. There are a few important resources you should look into:

1. The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ by Gary Habermas
2. The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas and Michael Lincona
3. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels by Craig Blomberg
4. Miracles by C.S. Lewis
5. Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli

I hope this all Helps!

 

[volzcpa]

jay29:

I am in a debate with pagans and agnostics. I need any proof other than those I listed. Here is what I am facing:

“I stand by my point. Jesus is strictly a MYTHOLOGICAL figure, and I dare you to proove me otherwise with facts and evidence, not quotes from the bible or faith pushing.”

Any help would be appreciated.

Perhaps you could look the factual history along with some logical reasoning to provide evidence for the existence of Christ. There are many historical documents that give the accounts of the many Christians who died as martyrs for their faith in Christ. In most instances, the Christians only had to renounce Christ and their belief in his teachings and their lives would have been spared. But not only did they not renounce Christ but they accepted death with open arms, even joy. Now many of these early Christian martyrs were alive at the time Christ lived and saw him themselves or at least believed the testimony of people they personally knew, who did see Christ, which would give them reason for their firm belief. If Christ were a myth, why would thousands of Christians rather die than renounce a myth? I think it would be hard to find more than a handful of people who would be willing to die for a myth. Think about it.

 

[mlchance]

“I stand by my point. Jesus is strictly a MYTHOLOGICAL figure, and I dare you to proove me otherwise with facts and evidence, not quotes from the bible or faith pushing.”

While this can be done, the demand itself is intellectually dishonest. It seeks to constrain the terms of the debate in order to arrive at a preconceived answer. It’s like me asking someone to prove when life begins, but saying that they can’t refer to the science of embryology.

– Mark L. Chance.