I posted this on an Atheist Forum

[RebeccaJ]

I can’t quite agree with this statement given the shear number of atheists that try to disprove our faith using their knowledge of the universe. They obviously think they have reasoned God out of existence through science.

An atheist does not have belief and to believe would require reasoning God INTO existence. An atheist does not believe in a god of any kind. Science is not a god. Science if just a method that many, not all, atheists insist on using to prove that God exists.

You and I and most believers know that science does not provide proof of God. Faith does that.

And shear number of atheists made me smile as something like 90% of the US population believes in a deity of some kind.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Well, they can Give an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters – or sit one monkey down at a typewriter for a Very Long, Potentially Infinite Time – and I guarantee you will see Shakespeare. It works because you’re working with a finite number of permutations of a finite set of letters, but you have infinite resources. Of course, the odds are extremely low; I’m probably getting the math wrong (it’s been a while), but on a keyboard with just the twenty-six letters, you’ll get the phrase ‘to be or not to be’ one out of, oh, 4360000000000000000000000 times.

If this is somehow even possible, it would take you an infinite amount of time to sift through the trash to find it. Thus I can question it’s existence infinitely and you will never be able to provide your proof that it occurred. So there.

This assumes that God is in the possibility set. The monkeys’ twenty-six letter keyboard does not include an interrobang key, after all, yet they can produce infinite sequences of letters. So first you’d have to show that God is possible If that’s accomplished, we’re still left with the problem of containment – and with the problem of explaining how all these other universes God didn’t create came around.

No I don’t. By definition anything is possible. So not only does God fall into that category, but I would argue that an infinite number of gods would be part of the solution set. That’s why I can’t go along with that line of reasoning. (it also sort of depends on your understanding of what a god is)

Sure, think what you like – multiple universes, as far as I know, are in much the same state scientifically speaking as the aliens I mentioned in my post above. However, I do take issue with your referring to ‘poor theories of creation’, seeing as ‘God did it’ isn’t even a theory. Sure, I don’t know if science will ever explain it, but that’s no reason to denigrate the effort.

I didn’t mean to imply that ALL creation theories are poor, I was just saying that, when pushed for a first cause or a reason behind astronomical odds against this universe existing with the 4 forces in their present state, some of them will eventually fall back to the infinite solution set as the answer. That’s poor science.

Yeah, I don’t think we’re up to it without a little help – which explains why I’m where I’m at, I guess

Amen!

A few do; they are in no way representative of the rest of the non-theists. ‘I have no reason to believe this’ isn’t an attempt to disprove God through science.

I had a whole argument written up to dispute this, but in the end I found I agree with you. You have a very valid point, not all non-believers even understand enough science to make it the basis of their choice. Thank you for opening my mind a little more

 

[Mirdath]

If this is somehow even possible, it would take you an infinite amount of time to sift through the trash to find it. Thus I can question it’s existence infinitely and you will never be able to provide your proof that it occurred. So there.

Nope, it’s provably there I promise you, in an infinitely long sequence of the letters of the alphabet, you will find Hamlet at some point (as well as many, many alternate versions in which Claudius performs ‘Singin’ in the Rain’ during the duel) – you’d probably die before you found it, but it is there!

A very interesting treatment of this sort of problem is found in Jorge Luis Borges’ short story The Library of Babel.

No I don’t. By definition anything is possible. So not only does God fall into that category, but I would argue that an infinite number of gods would be part of the solution set. That’s why I can’t go along with that line of reasoning. (it also sort of depends on your understanding of what a god is)

Anything? Well then, I’ll have to add ‘God of Universe 655321ADL’ to my list of titles Anything is not possible – for instance, you can’t violate the law of noncontradiction, or it all just goes poof in a cloud of existence being the same thing as nonexistence. Anything reasonable is possible, and that’s a much smaller set.

I had a whole argument written up to dispute this, but in the end I found I agree with you. You have a very valid point, not all non-believers even understand enough science to make it the basis of their choice. Thank you for opening my mind a little more

You’re most welcome

 

[Kitty_Chan]

My point is not ‘there is no God’ but ‘proofs, or those shown so far, are insufficient’. The problem of containment, while maybe not intended, is a direct consequence of your postulating that in an infinite number of universes, one must needs possess (connotation of ownership intended, for what else is it?) a deity. Cart before the horse – it’s putting this unknown universe ahead of God.

And no, for the record, I remain agnostic.

just going back to this and hopefully Im on the wave link if not sorry

any way here goes:

when you mentioned containment, made me think, you are on the right idea of God, He is not contained, He cannot be contained by His own creation.

A example could be a house perhaps, a architect designs it, but he is not the house, its just his creation. And the house speaks about the architect by its design so one would know who made it.

?