I should know this... Responsorials that aren't Psalms?

[Spoken4]

Is that allowed? I’ve never really given it a thought, to be honest, as I’ve always just taken it for granted that the Responsorial Psalm is just that-- a psalm.

But are there times when a Responsorial could be a Scripture other than a Psalm? For instance, could it be appropriate (say, during a Rosary Mass or on a Marian feast day–Annunciation, for instance) to use the Magnificat?

A great example of what I mean would be using the lovely and rather simple Chepponis “Magnificat” as a Responsorial “Hymn” on the Annunciation… the congregation and Choir sing the one-or-two line refrain (“Proclaim the Greatness of God; rejoice in God my Savior, rejoice in God my Savior!”) while the Cantor(s) or soloists sing the passages? As I type this, though, I seem to remember our HS choir doing something like this WAAAY back in the early 1980’s. Still, that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate or proper.

“Magnificat” and other non-psalm responsorial hymns: permitted if the rest of the Reading support it (or vice versa)? Or must the Responsorial actually come from the Book of Psalms?

In Christ’s Learning–

~Spoken4

 

[benedictgal]

Is that allowed? I’ve never really given it a thought, to be honest, as I’ve always just taken it for granted that the Responsorial Psalm is just that-- a psalm.

But are there times when a Responsorial could be a Scripture other than a Psalm? For instance, could it be appropriate (say, during a Rosary Mass or on a Marian feast day–Annunciation, for instance) to use the Magnificat?

A great example of what I mean would be using the lovely and rather simple Chepponis “Magnificat” as a Responsorial “Hymn” on the Annunciation… the congregation and Choir sing the one-or-two line refrain (“Proclaim the Greatness of God; rejoice in God my Savior, rejoice in God my Savior!”) while the Cantor(s) or soloists sing the passages? As I type this, though, I seem to remember our HS choir doing something like this WAAAY back in the early 1980’s. Still, that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate or proper.

“Magnificat” and other non-psalm responsorial hymns: permitted if the rest of the Reading support it (or vice versa)? Or must the Responsorial actually come from the Book of Psalms?

In Christ’s Learning–

~Spoken4

Hello and welcome to the forums.

Here is what the General Insturction of the Roman Missal states regarding the responsorial psalm:

It is preferable that the responsorial Psalm be sung, at least as far as the people’s response is concerned. Hence, the psalmist, or the cantor of the Psalm, sings the verses of the Psalm from the ambo or another suitable place. The entire congregation remains seated and listens but, as a rule, takes part by singing the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through without a response. In order, however, that the people may be able to sing the Psalm response more readily, texts of some responses and Psalms have been chosen for the various seasons of the year or for the various categories of Saints. These may be used in place of the text corresponding to the reading whenever the Psalm is sung. If the Psalm cannot be sung, then it should be recited in such a way that it is particularly suited to fostering meditation on the word of God.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons, including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the responsorial Psalm

Redemptionis Sacramentum states that:

[62.] It is also illicit to omit or to substitute the prescribed biblical readings on one’s own initiative, and especially “to substitute other, non-biblical texts for the readings and responsorial Psalm, which contain the word of God”.138

I hope this helps.

 

[PacoG]

Benedictgal…you totally missed his question. He was not asking for a lecture about what RS says can or can’t be done. He was asking if there are times and places where the other not-Psalms in the Bible be used as Psalms. (I will call the Psalm-like poems/hymns in the Bible “not-Psalms” because I just saw the *House * episode “Not Cancer”.)

Spoken4…now to answer your question…The not-Psalms are used throughout the liturgical year. For example, the Song of Moses (Exodus 15: “Sing to the Lord; He has covered Himself in glory”) is part of the Easter Vigil Liturgy of the Word, after the third reading (Exodus 14). The third Sunday of Advent is a prime example of when the not-Psalms are used as the Magnifcat is the responsorial in year B and Isaiah 12 (Cry out with joy and gladness; for among you is the great and Holy One of Israel) is the responsorial for Year C.

If you read through the liturgical year there are others.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal…you totally missed his question. He was not asking for a lecture about RS about what can or can’t be done. He was asking if there are times and places where the other not-Psalms in the Bible be used as Psalms. (I will call the Psalm-like poems/hymns in the Bible “not-Psalms” because I just saw the *House * episode “Not Cancer”.)

The not-Psalms are used throughout the liturgical year. For example, the Song of Moses (Exodus 15: “Sing to the Lord; He has covered Himself in glory”) is part of the Easter Vigil Liturgy of the Word, after the third reading (Exodus 14). The Magnifcat as the responsorial in the year B readings on the Third Sunday of Advent. Isaiah 12 (Cry out with joy and gladness; for among you is the great and Holy One of Israel) is the responsorial for Third Sunday of Advent in Year C.

If you read through the liturgical year there are others.

No, I believe that he is asking about something different. He is asking if he could substitute the Magnificat or a non-psalm for a responsorial psalm. While the point is well-taking about the Magnificat and the Canticle of Moses, these, I believe, are not generally inserted into other Masses to replace the given responsorial psalm.

 

[PacoG]

No. He is asking if he could substitute the Magnificat or a non-psalm for a responsorial psalm. While the point is well-taking about the Magnificat and the Canticle of Moses, these, I believe, are not inserted into other Masses to replace the given responsorial psalm.

This was his question:

**

“Magnificat” and other non-psalm responsorial hymns: permitted if the rest of the Reading support it (or vice versa)? Or must the Responsorial actually come from the Book of Psalms?

**

 

[Spoken4]

Hello and welcome to the forums.

Here is what the General Insturction of the Roman Missal states regarding the responsorial psalm:

Redemptionis Sacramentum states that:

[62.] It is also illicit to omit or to substitute the prescribed biblical readings on one’s own initiative, and especially “to substitute other, non-biblical texts for the readings and responsorial Psalm, which contain the word of God”.138 .

Okay, does the “Magnificat” taken from Luke qualify as an “antiphon”? We were wondering about using it for the Feast of the Annunciation, since the Gospel that day usually contains some version or part of “Mary’s Canticle”. In Scripture, it appears when Mary visits Elizabeth:

My soul doth magnify the Lord.
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty,
hath done great things to me;
and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations,
to them that fear him.
He hath shewed might in his arm:
he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat,
and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He hath received Israel his servant,
being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his seed for ever. (Luke 1: 41-45)

Meh… maybe we’ll just use it as a second hymn at another appropriate place in the Mass and totally avoid any impropriety. The Magnificat seems perfect as a Responsorial, though, and especially the version I spoke of, since the refrain is easy for a congregation to learn and sing (not to mention that this version is very lovely and reverent, and perfectly set for a congregation and Cantor).

I see other replies have filtered in as I was typing. I’m slow, what can I say? I’m also a woman, not a guy.

Thanks all, especially, to Paco for pointing out examples when “non-Psalms” are used… and yes, I’ve heard/sung those! I just didn’t give it a thought.

 

[benedictgal]

Okay, does the “Magnificat” taken from Luke qualify as an “antiphon”? We were wondering about using it for the Feast of the Annunciation, since the Gospel that day usually contains some version or part of “Mary’s Canticle”. In Scripture, it appears when Mary visits Elizabeth:

Meh… maybe we’ll just use it as a second hymn at another appropriate place in the Mass and totally avoid any impropriety. The Magnificat seems perfect as a Responsorial, though, and especially the version I spoke of, since the refrain is easy for a congregation to learn and sing (not to mention that this version is very lovely and reverent, and perfectly set for a congregation and Cantor).

I see other replies have filtered in as I was typing. I’m slow, what can I say?

Thanks all, especially, to Paco for pointing out examples when “non-Psalms” are used… and yes, I’ve heard/sung those! I just didn’t give it a thought.

I can see your point about the Magnificat; however, the psalm for that particular day, “The Queen stands at your right hand, arrayed in gold” is chosen because of its direct meaning to the solemnity of the Assumption.

You could certainly use the Magnificat as the Communion antiphon or even the Entrance Antiphon. In fact, it could very well work as the Communion antiphon since the faithful could chant the refrain while the cantor/choir sing the verses.

 

[Spoken4]

This was his question:

"Magnificat" and other non-psalm responsorial hymns: permitted if the rest of the Reading support it (or vice versa)? Or must the Responsorial actually come from the Book of Psalms?]

Actually, it was a “two-parter”.

ETA:

from BenedictGal: You could certainly use the Magnificat as the Communion antiphon or even the Entrance Antiphon. In fact, it could very well work as the Communion antiphon since the faithful could chant the refrain while the cantor/choir sing the verses.

And that’s what we’ll probably do, then. The proscribed Psalm of the day is lovely as is,so it WOULD be a shame to change it.

That settles it, then. Post-Communion hymn it is, then! Danke!

-Spoken4

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, it was a “two-parter”.

-Spoken4

In case you are interested, the revised Grail Pslater is out. You can purchase it from GIA. This is one of the options that the Church gives us.

 

[Spoken4]

Thanks, BG-- I’ll check out the Psalter; we might even have it in our church Library. Father W. is very good about having the latest books and hymnals available for us.

We’ll probably just use the Magnificat as our Communion meditation-- that’s when the Choir tends to “raise their voices” at their finest, anyway.

I’m new to this choir, but an old hat at choirs in general, and our Music Director is VERY open to any and all (appropriate) ideas for liturgical and meditation music. Boy, do I have a TON of ideas…

In the joy of Christ,

~Spoken4

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks, BG-- I’ll check out the Psalter; we might even have it in our church Library. Father W. is very good about having the latest books and hymnals available for us.

We’ll probably just use the Magnificat as our Communion meditation-- that’s when the Choir tends to “raise their voices” at their finest, anyway.

I’m new to this choir, but an old hat at choirs in general, and our Music Director is VERY open to any and all (appropriate) ideas for liturgical and meditation music. Boy, do I have a TON of ideas…

In the joy of Christ,

~Spoken4

The revised Grail Psalter just came out. Here is a link to it:

giamusic.com/sacred_music/RGP/

This is the one that replaces the previous version.

I hope this helps.

 

[Spoken4]

The revised Grail Psalter just came out. Here is a link to it:

giamusic.com/sacred_music/RGP/

This is the one that replaces the previous version.

I hope this helps.

Sweet… if Father hasn’t gotten or ordered it already, I’m sure he will very soon. I understand that he’s very good about that. Thanks for the link.

In Christ,

~Spoken4

 

[FrDavid96]

Is that allowed? I’ve never really given it a thought, to be honest, as I’ve always just taken it for granted that the Responsorial Psalm is just that-- a psalm.

But are there times when a Responsorial could be a Scripture other than a Psalm? For instance, could it be appropriate (say, during a Rosary Mass or on a Marian feast day–Annunciation, for instance) to use the Magnificat?

A great example of what I mean would be using the lovely and rather simple Chepponis “Magnificat” as a Responsorial “Hymn” on the Annunciation… the congregation and Choir sing the one-or-two line refrain (“Proclaim the Greatness of God; rejoice in God my Savior, rejoice in God my Savior!”) while the Cantor(s) or soloists sing the passages? As I type this, though, I seem to remember our HS choir doing something like this WAAAY back in the early 1980’s. Still, that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate or proper.

“Magnificat” and other non-psalm responsorial hymns: permitted if the rest of the Reading support it (or vice versa)? Or must the Responsorial actually come from the Book of Psalms?

In Christ’s Learning–

~Spoken4

The Responsorial Psalm must be chosen from the Lectionary (or other approved sources), as Benedictgal has already quoted.

Although we call it the “responsorial psalm” they don’t all necessarily come from the “Book of Psalms” itself. Some of them are from other books of the Bible. If you have a Lectionary handy, look in the back of the book and find the “Index of Responsorial Psalms” Most of them are from the Book of Psalms, but a very few are from other NT and OT sources.

The Magnificat is one of the “psalms” given in the Lectionary as a common reading for Masses of the BVM. You’re asking “…if the rest of the readings support it?” so it’s natural that the rest of the Mass will probably be BVM anyway. To use your example, at a “Rosary Mass” most likely the priest would be saying one of the Votive Masses of the BVM (like Holy Name of Mary or Mother of the Church–I can’t recall if there’s a particular Mass for “Our Lady of the Rosary”). In that case, the Magnificat is already listed as one of the options–therefore, there’s no question it can be done.

We cannot just use anyone’s version of the Magnificat though. It has to be the version printed in the Lectionary, including the response-verse itself. So a hymn based on the Magnificat would not be acceptable, while the actual text from the Lectionary set to music (w/o changing the words one bit) would be fine.

 

[Spoken4]

In case anyone’s interested in hearing the “Magnificat” of which I was speaking-- a sample can be heard here:

giamusic.com/product_search.cfm?PageNum_GetResults=5&criteria=james-chepponis

Just click on the little speaker icon in the Preview column for “Magnificat”-- either the MP3 listing, or the one that says “Printed Edition”. There, you’ll hear a short segment of the song. Basically, the structure is the same throughout… refrain/response, then a verse. It’s easy to see how this could be a very nice responsorial or Thanksgiving (post-Communion meditation) hymn, even if it’s not used as “THE” Responsorial Psalm of the day’s Mass.

I wonder if our school had a Special Dispensation from the Bishop to use that hymn as a responsorial. Now that I think about it… I think the Bishop DID celebrate that Mass! Maybe that’s the case, given that it was a very special occasion.

ETA: The Chepponis “Magnificat” is not “true to the Translation” used in the Lectionary, so I take it, from your response, that it wouldn’t be appropriate as a Responsorial, though certainly it would be a very nice hymn to use elsewhere. That answers that!

Enjoy!

In the joy of Christ,

~Spoken4

 

[Spoken4]

The Responsorial Psalm must be chosen from the Lectionary (or other approved sources), as Benedictgal has already quoted…

…The Magnificat is one of the “psalms” given in the Lectionary as a common reading for Masses of the BVM. You’re asking “…if the rest of the readings support it?” so it’s natural that the rest of the Mass will probably be BVM anyway. To use your example, at a “Rosary Mass” most likely the priest would be saying one of the Votive Masses of the BVM (like Holy Name of Mary or Mother of the Church–I can’t recall if there’s a particular Mass for “Our Lady of the Rosary”). In that case, the Magnificat is already listed as one of the options–therefore, there’s no question it can be done.

We cannot just use anyone’s version of the Magnificat though. It has to be the version printed in the Lectionary, including the response-verse itself. So a hymn based on the Magnificat would not be acceptable, while the actual text from the Lectionary set to music (w/o changing the words one bit) would be fine.

Thank you, FrDavid-- that’s helpful! We’ll probably just stick with using Chepponis’ “Magnificat” (“Canticle of Mary”) as I’ve already mentioned. The structure just seemed perfect, though, and the response part is easy enough for a congregation to learn in one pass. Now, if we can encourage them to participate in the song if/when we sing it after Communion. We sometimes have trouble with that part, regardless of what we’re singing!

In Christ,

~Spoken4

 

[FrDavid96]

In case anyone’s interested in hearing the “Magnificat” of which I was speaking-- a sample can be heard here:

giamusic.com/product_search.cfm?PageNum_GetResults=5&criteria=james-chepponis

Just click on the little speaker icon in the Preview column for “Magnificat”-- either the MP3 listing, or the one that says “Printed Edition”. There, you’ll hear a short segment of the song. Basically, the structure is the same throughout… refrain/response, then a verse. It’s easy to see how this could be a very nice responsorial or Thanksgiving (post-Communion meditation) hymn, even if it’s not used as “THE” Responsorial Psalm of the day’s Mass.

I wonder if our school had a Special Dispensation from the Bishop to use that hymn as a responsorial. Now that I think about it… I think the Bishop DID celebrate that Mass! Maybe that’s the case, given that it was a very special occasion.

ETA: The Chepponis “Magnificat” is not “true to the Translation” used in the Lectionary, so I take it, from your response, that it wouldn’t be appropriate as a Responsorial, though certainly it would be a very nice hymn to use elsewhere. That answers that!

Enjoy!

In the joy of Christ,

~Spoken4

The bishop is competent to approve a translation of the psalm. Again, see Benedictgal’s post about what can be used: “providing that they have been approved by … the Diocesan Bishop” So, if the bishop indeed approved it, that’s fine. It just cannot be done without his approval (or that of the USCCB, or the Holy See itself).

 

[Joannm]

In case anyone’s interested in hearing the “Magnificat” of which I was speaking-- a sample can be heard here:

giamusic.com/product_search.cfm?PageNum_GetResults=5&criteria=james-chepponis

Just click on the little speaker icon in the Preview column for “Magnificat”-- either the MP3 listing, or the one that says “Printed Edition”. There, you’ll hear a short segment of the song. Basically, the structure is the same throughout… refrain/response, then a verse. It’s easy to see how this could be a very nice responsorial or Thanksgiving (post-Communion meditation) hymn, even if it’s not used as “THE” Responsorial Psalm of the day’s Mass.

I wonder if our school had a Special Dispensation from the Bishop to use that hymn as a responsorial. Now that I think about it… I think the Bishop DID celebrate that Mass! Maybe that’s the case, given that it was a very special occasion.

ETA: The Chepponis “Magnificat” is not “true to the Translation” used in the Lectionary, so I take it, from your response, that it wouldn’t be appropriate as a Responsorial, though certainly it would be a very nice hymn to use elsewhere. That answers that!

Enjoy!

In the joy of Christ,

~Spoken4

I just love Chepponis’ Magnificat. When I was in the diocesan choir we used to sing it at all Vesper service we were asked to sing at.