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Franze
Guest
When I see these things, I comprehend that the original sin is a reality.
- Status
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Contarini
Guest
First of all, we are called to love our enemies, and that clearly includes Osama Bin Laden and his comrades. I don’t dispute that that’s terribly difficult. But that’s our calling as Christians.
Second, you have given no reason for us to believe that this fatwa speaks for Muslims as a whole. Muslims have no centralized Magisterium, and if they did Bin Laden wouldn’t be it. That is not to buy into the PC nonsense about how Bin Laden et al are “not really Muslims.” Of course they’re Muslims. But they’re a particular kind of extremist Muslim. Historically, Muslims have had rules about the conduct of Jihad which rule out atrocities such as Sept. 11.
Edwin
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LtTony
Guest
Forgive this ugly American, but is it possible to view your blogs in English?
Also:
“I don´t know what do you think, The Koran is very violent, and is the word of God, without intepretations, the boder between islam and islamism is very thin and sometimes, inexistent, IMO the best solution is the conversion to catholicism.”
If you are directing the question to me, I don’t know what to think. I agree with your “conversion” observation. What do you mean “islam and islamism”?
Jim
Also:
“I don´t know what do you think, The Koran is very violent, and is the word of God, without intepretations, the boder between islam and islamism is very thin and sometimes, inexistent, IMO the best solution is the conversion to catholicism.”
If you are directing the question to me, I don’t know what to think. I agree with your “conversion” observation. What do you mean “islam and islamism”?
Jim
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CarolAnnSFO
Guest
LtTony said:
I don’t have any profound answer to the question of whether Islam is or isn’t a peaceful religion (I haven’t read the Qur’an – maybe I should). I was just stating that I don’t believe that any statement from the likes of Osama bin Ladin can be representative of all Muslims.
I do think that “mainstream” Muslims (if that’s what they are called) should speak up against statements such as the one in the first post, if such statements really don’t represent their belief. I also believe Muslim nations should have religious freedom. If the Muslim religion is really capable of standing on its own, and is not just being propped up on a foundation of tyranny and dictatorship, then religious freedom should prove no threat.
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LtTony
Guest
I suppose one could make a Christian list, as well, Axion, but your point is well taken, in my mind. That’s basically what prompted my OP.
You speak truth, Edwin. So, are they ONE of the enemies we face in today’s world? Again, that’s the question posed in the OP?
Jim
You speak truth, Edwin. So, are they ONE of the enemies we face in today’s world? Again, that’s the question posed in the OP?
Jim
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Christus_Rex
Guest
I have many Muslim friends who would never lay a finger on another person. 
You should love EVERYONE, just like Jesus said.
Just because a few Muslims think the quick way to Heaven is to blow up non-Muslims, doesn’t mean they all think like this.
Michael
You should love EVERYONE, just like Jesus said.
Just because a few Muslims think the quick way to Heaven is to blow up non-Muslims, doesn’t mean they all think like this.
Michael
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LtTony
Guest
…which is the kind of thing I find so distresssful.
By Aaron Klein
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
JERUSALEM – With Muslims worldwide protesting a now-retracted Newsweek report that claimed U.S. Army interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed a Quran down the toilet, the father of a rabbi who was murdered while trying to defend a Jewish holy site from Palestinian rioters blasted Muslim leaders yesterday in an exclusive WorldNetDaily interview.
Rabbi Zevulun Lieberman, whose son Hillel died trying to save Joseph’s Tomb in the West Bank city of Nablus from Muslim rioters, told WND he is “sickened by this Muslim outcry when Muslims have shown the world they don’t have any respect for religion whatsoever. They lost the right to protest about disrespect for religion and holy objects a long time ago.”
Accusing Muslim leadership of using the Newsweek story to create “anti-American incitement,” Lieberman asked, “Where were the protesters when Muslims desecrated Joseph’s Tomb and other sites?”
…Tomb desecrated
In October 2000, after Israeli troops evacuated the city of Nablus as a peacemaking gesture, scores of Palestinians stormed into the Joseph’s Tomb compound and destroyed the site believed to be the burial place of the biblical patriarch Joseph – the son of Jacob who was sold by his brothers into slavery and later became the viceroy of Egypt.
The 1993 Oslo Accords put Joseph’s Tomb under Israeli jurisdiction, but on Oct. 7, 2000, then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak ordered a unilateral retreat, based on a Palestinian agreement to protect the site.
Within hours of the Israeli withdrawal, smoke was seen billowing from the tomb as an Arab crowd burned Jewish prayer books and other holy objects. Palestinians used pickaxes, hammers and later bulldozers to tear apart the stone building. The dome of the tomb was painted green, and a mosque was subsequently erected in its place. …
Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, who lived nearby, headed by foot to the tomb when he heard of its desecration, hoping, his family said, to save any Torah scrolls or other holy objects that might have been left intact.
Lieberman disappeared. His bullet-ridden body was found the next day in a cave. …
Lieberman accused Islamic leaders of using the Newsweek article to spur anti-American incitement: “These leaders, who have no conscience, they aren’t upset for religious reasons. It’s just an excuse.”
“Nowhere in the parameters of humanity is it tolerable to destroy a holy site. The Muslims did something even an animal wouldn’t do. Only humans who are completely sick with no sense of reason can do such a thing. And only a religion that is beyond the pale of humanity can sit back and not protest such an act.” …
Susan Roth, director of the Eshet Chayil Foundation, one of the main benefactors of the biblical matriarch Rachel’s Tomb, to which surviving artifacts of Joseph’s Tomb were recently transferred, told WND: “There was almost total silence in the Muslim world when Palestinians blew up Jews at their Passover seder, when Joseph’s tomb was desecrated, and even overall with regard to terrorism.”
Roth was referring to a Hamas suicide bombing March 2002 that killed 30 and injured 140 when a bomb was exploded in the midst of a Passover seder at an Israeli hotel. "
By Aaron Klein
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
JERUSALEM – With Muslims worldwide protesting a now-retracted Newsweek report that claimed U.S. Army interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed a Quran down the toilet, the father of a rabbi who was murdered while trying to defend a Jewish holy site from Palestinian rioters blasted Muslim leaders yesterday in an exclusive WorldNetDaily interview.
Rabbi Zevulun Lieberman, whose son Hillel died trying to save Joseph’s Tomb in the West Bank city of Nablus from Muslim rioters, told WND he is “sickened by this Muslim outcry when Muslims have shown the world they don’t have any respect for religion whatsoever. They lost the right to protest about disrespect for religion and holy objects a long time ago.”
Accusing Muslim leadership of using the Newsweek story to create “anti-American incitement,” Lieberman asked, “Where were the protesters when Muslims desecrated Joseph’s Tomb and other sites?”
…Tomb desecrated
In October 2000, after Israeli troops evacuated the city of Nablus as a peacemaking gesture, scores of Palestinians stormed into the Joseph’s Tomb compound and destroyed the site believed to be the burial place of the biblical patriarch Joseph – the son of Jacob who was sold by his brothers into slavery and later became the viceroy of Egypt.
The 1993 Oslo Accords put Joseph’s Tomb under Israeli jurisdiction, but on Oct. 7, 2000, then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak ordered a unilateral retreat, based on a Palestinian agreement to protect the site.
Within hours of the Israeli withdrawal, smoke was seen billowing from the tomb as an Arab crowd burned Jewish prayer books and other holy objects. Palestinians used pickaxes, hammers and later bulldozers to tear apart the stone building. The dome of the tomb was painted green, and a mosque was subsequently erected in its place. …
Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, who lived nearby, headed by foot to the tomb when he heard of its desecration, hoping, his family said, to save any Torah scrolls or other holy objects that might have been left intact.
Lieberman disappeared. His bullet-ridden body was found the next day in a cave. …
Lieberman accused Islamic leaders of using the Newsweek article to spur anti-American incitement: “These leaders, who have no conscience, they aren’t upset for religious reasons. It’s just an excuse.”
“Nowhere in the parameters of humanity is it tolerable to destroy a holy site. The Muslims did something even an animal wouldn’t do. Only humans who are completely sick with no sense of reason can do such a thing. And only a religion that is beyond the pale of humanity can sit back and not protest such an act.” …
Susan Roth, director of the Eshet Chayil Foundation, one of the main benefactors of the biblical matriarch Rachel’s Tomb, to which surviving artifacts of Joseph’s Tomb were recently transferred, told WND: “There was almost total silence in the Muslim world when Palestinians blew up Jews at their Passover seder, when Joseph’s tomb was desecrated, and even overall with regard to terrorism.”
Roth was referring to a Hamas suicide bombing March 2002 that killed 30 and injured 140 when a bomb was exploded in the midst of a Passover seder at an Israeli hotel. "
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LtTony
Guest
Christus Rex:
Jim
I WANT to believe and act as you suggest. I just need a little help. Meaning, a little evidence (that this is a minority) would be nice.
Jim
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Franze
Guest
It´s was only an opinion, my blogs are in spanish, I translate some time, respect islam and islamism, well it´s diferent
Islam is the religion
Islamism is the political use of islam to govern in theocracies, examples the afghan arabs and Argeria, “we want a democracy for voting one time only” because Allah will govern later", another case is Iran and well all the islamist groups like the turkish president, like muslim brotherhood, hizbollah, like justice and development in Morocco, islamism is very different but have in common that want more islamic presence in the goverment, streets etc and many want the sharia like law. For example the Dawa Party and the president Al-Yafari in Iraq. Thank to God for kurds that have refused.
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Franze
Guest
Christus Rex:
We have speaking of a minority , but a minority of 4 million people and this is very dangerous.I have many Muslim friends who would never lay a finger on another person.
You should love EVERYONE, just like Jesus said.
Just because a few Muslims think the quick way to Heaven is to blow up non-Muslims, doesn’t mean they all think like this.
Michael
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Contarini
Guest
Well, Islamic extremists definitely are. Islam as a whole is certainly a rival to Christianity, and in that sense an enemy. And unquestionably the use of force is more deeply rooted in Islam than in Christianity, because Islam was from the beginning a religion intended to govern a whole society. At the same time, mainstream Islam did historically have limits on violence, and while Islam was not tolerant by modern standards, medieval Islamic society compares favorably to medieval Christendom in some ways in terms of tolerance of religious minorities. (This is a debatable claim–I’m making it because it’s not a point of view many on this board are going to express. But I’m not sure if it’s true or simply reflects anti-Christian bias on the part of modern secular historians.) There are a lot more grounds for dialogue with Islam than coe conservative Christians would have us believe. But of course it’s nonsense to claim that either Islam or Christianity are historically “religions of peace” in the modern liberal sense.
Edwin
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
ObL is a Wahhabi:
**http://www.rickross.com/reference/islamic/islamic46.html
****Principles of the Wahhabi sect
****San Jose Mercury News/December 29, 2001 **
**
**“Wahhabi” is the name most Western scholars apply to a Muslim puritan movement founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab in 18th-century Arabia. Wahhab formed an alliance with the al-Saud family, one that eventually led to Saudi dominance in the area, and the establishment of Saudi Arabia.
The Wahhabi prefer to call themselves "Salafi,’’ meaning "forefathers’’ or "pioneers,’’ a reference to their belief that they are promulgating the Islam of Muhammad.
They point out that the tensions between fundamentalists and modernizers in Islam long predate Wahhab, dating to the decades after Muhammad’s death in 632.
**Some Wahhabi tenets: **
No object of worship other than God.
Rejection of the use of holy intermediaries to win the favor of God.
No name but God’s to be cited in prayer.
These three principles are the basis of the zealous Wahhabi rejection of saints or icons, Muslim or otherwise.
This is one detail where they differ from Shia Muslims - Saints like Ali are immensely important to the Shia.
The Taliban’s decision this year to destroy gigantic ancient statues of Buddha was influenced by Wahhabi backers.A literal belief in the Koran.
A belief in the establishment of a Muslim state based only on Shariah, Muslim law.
A fervent rejection of all innovations not directly advancing Islam. In the 20th century, Wahhabi religious leaders accepted radio as a means of spreading Islam, but at least initially rejected television as a corrupting medium.
No smoking, shaving or abusive language.
The rejection of leadership roles for women.
Minimalist architecture for mosques, lacking ornamentation or minarets.
Compulsory public prayer for men.
================
The Wahhabi are Sunni Muslims - members of the section of Islam which represents 90% of Islam - the Shia represent the other 10%. That does not make the Wahhabi the majority of Islam, however.
It really is unfair to blame Islam as a whole for the activities of a section within it - aren’t we always saying that, when various ghastlinesses or other objections are brought up against Catholicism ? If that argument is a valid defence of us, it is equally valid as a defence of Islam. ##
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iamrefreshed
Guest
I am reading the Qur’an. I have begun highlighting passages I find violent or “un-Christ like”. The book is turning yellow from the highlighting.
I’m sorry if this sounds bad but Satan is at work here on earth. I saw that in person out my office window on 9-11.
Any religion that condones murder is not from God.
J
Jay74
Guest
As a Christian, I obviously do not accept Muslim doctrine. However, there are many Muslim’s who are lovable. My favorite Muslim, Kamal Nawash, is president of the Free Muslims Coalition. He defends Judaism and Christianity, publicly states that Jews and Christians can go to Heaven, publicly condemns terrorism and al Queda stating that such people are destined for Hell, defends Isreal against beliefs that they must be exterminated, and has been been a breath of fresh air. I’ve exchanged several e-mails with him, and he seems most gracious and sincere. 9-11 triggered his Muslim coaltion to oppose terrorism. He was recently appointed by the Bush administration to be a spokesperson for the US in regards to such issues.
His website is freemuslims.org. He speaks kindly of Christianity, and one article on the site says that kindness and prayers from Christians were very moving.
We disagree with his religion, but can appreciate his values. I wish he had as many followers as bin laden does.
Blessings.
His website is freemuslims.org. He speaks kindly of Christianity, and one article on the site says that kindness and prayers from Christians were very moving.
We disagree with his religion, but can appreciate his values. I wish he had as many followers as bin laden does.
Blessings.
H
hlgomez
Guest
I have a story to tell and its a true story from the Philippines.
In the Philippines the muslim population accounts to 5± % and are mostly located in the Southern Island called Mindanao. There are many rebel muslims who wanted to make the whole Philippines to become a Islamic country. But unfortunately, Philippines cannot be Islamic because it’s 85% Catholic of the 80 million people.
There was this story of a high-ranking military in the government who tried to negotiate for peace with the Islamic rebels. The leaders of this Islamic group were persuaded by the general and the general was invited to come to their turf. But all this happens after intense contact and negotiations, etc. leaving each side a sense of trust. To make the long story short, the general, together with his aides went there unarmed, trusting these muslims that they will not hurt them, and because of the trust they already have for each other, in order to settle an agreement for peace. Once they were at there camp, without any warning, and without any hesitation, they were all butchered by these muslims and the story was so gruelling, I can’t trust muslims anymore.
Yes we can love them, BUT NEVER trust them.
Pio
In the Philippines the muslim population accounts to 5± % and are mostly located in the Southern Island called Mindanao. There are many rebel muslims who wanted to make the whole Philippines to become a Islamic country. But unfortunately, Philippines cannot be Islamic because it’s 85% Catholic of the 80 million people.
There was this story of a high-ranking military in the government who tried to negotiate for peace with the Islamic rebels. The leaders of this Islamic group were persuaded by the general and the general was invited to come to their turf. But all this happens after intense contact and negotiations, etc. leaving each side a sense of trust. To make the long story short, the general, together with his aides went there unarmed, trusting these muslims that they will not hurt them, and because of the trust they already have for each other, in order to settle an agreement for peace. Once they were at there camp, without any warning, and without any hesitation, they were all butchered by these muslims and the story was so gruelling, I can’t trust muslims anymore.
Yes we can love them, BUT NEVER trust them.
Pio
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fatuma
Guest
Please, Please, Please, for thoes of you who love truth and can not stand lies that are told out of hate this READ this whole article:philippineupdate.com/Conflict.htm
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LtTony
Guest
Thanks for sharing that, Jay. I’ve wanted a link to a site like that, as I have some questions regarding what I’m up against and what I’m not up against.
However, I think I may be a little ticked off at that site. After a brief visit, I found a tiny freemuslims.com (DOS) application (.exe) in a folder where I saved a text document of your message. Pure luck that I found it. I have no idea how it got there; could have been me. But with all the spyware out there these days… why should a religious site be any different?
Anyhoo, back to the topic. I hope to ask muslims why there are not more sites like that of Mr. Nawash. Why more of them have not stepped forward to help Americans and Arabs understand each other better.
Jim
- Status