I was just evangelized

[Catholic_Kenpo]

I’m sitting here watching daily Mass on EWTN while I wait for 24 to start and the doorbell rings. I live alone and the only friends I have in the area would call before coming over, so I was a bit hesitant to answer the door as it was most assuredly someone I wouldn’t want to talk to. I answered anyway, just out of curiosity, and my first hunch was right. Standing on my doorstep was a gentleman in a coat and tie (probably in his 40’s), a younger guy and a young lady. The young lady wanted to know if I would like to take a survey on spirituality. Being that this is a subject of great interest to me, I agreed. She started with some rather generic questions: would I consider myself more spiritual/religious than I was 5 years ago, what church I attend, etc. Then she proceeded to ask some questions that, quite honestly, I thought were quite poorly worded. Things like what does Jesus mean to me and the like. Turns out they were Baptists that were a part of the group Evangelization Explosion. Apparently, it concerned them that I wasn’t 100% certain that I would gain entrance to heaven upon my death. They gave me some kind of booklet to read before leaving (I don’t know what it said, it’s in the trash now). Unfortunately, I couldn’t remember most of my admittedly meager apologetics, so I know I didn’t shake their faith, but they didn’t come close to shaking mine either. It wasn’t a stellar performance, but I’m really not accustomed to defending the faith yet. This was actually the first time I’d ever had anybody come to my door to try to convert me, so it was a new experience.

-CK

 

[YADA]

Don’t let it bother you …

As for not knowing 100% whether you would make it into heaven or not … you are in good company … St Paul was not certain either … If the Baptists are certain … well, so much for reading and knowing their “Bible” …

And I am sure that [as you reflect upon this encounter] you will remember lots of points. Points you wish you had brought up … next time you will be ready … and the time after that - even more so … and the time after that - they better watch out!

 

[Luke65]

Don’t let it bother you …

As for not knowing 100% whether you would make it into heaven or not … you are in good company … St Paul was not certain either …

Obviously they are greater than St. Paul!

CK, here’s a webpage that will fully arm you on the topic of salvation against OSAS and “faith alone”.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

Vivat Jesus!!!

I suspect you did better than you thought. I wonder if they will come back.

 

[Eucharisted]

If they ever come back, exchange booklets with them: They give you a booklet on salvation, you give them Deus Caritas Est.

 

[Catholic_Kenpo]

The parish where I go to daily Mass has the Pillar of Fire booklets available. I’ve been seriously contemplating picking up a few and keeping them on hand. If nothing else, I guess I could read them. Thinking about it now, I’d really hate to see how badly I would’ve done if I weren’t going to Mass every day. :shudder: Anyway, I kinda doubt I’ll see them again. The area I live in is a residential area, but I’m kind of off by myself. It’s unusual that anyone that doesn’t live on my street comes back our way. Regardless, I should be more prepared if they do.

-CK

 

[Catholic_Kenpo]

OK, so this might be a bit off my original topic, but it’s somewhat related, and it is my thread, so I think I’m allowed . I was thinking this morning about the incident that caused me to start this thread and different ways to handle it. It occured to me that there is a critical flaw in their line of thinking. One of their main points was that they were 100% certain that they would go to heaven upon their death. While this sounds great, it can be proven false with just one name - Judas. He was clearly a disciple, and if anyone would be “guaranteed” entry to heaven, it should be the people that followed Him on a daily basis while He was on earth (physically). However, due to his betrayal of Jesus, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that Judas made it to heaven. The most likely answer to this response, from the OSAS perspective, is that Judas wasn’t actually saved to begin with. If that is the case, then the argument is lost. Because if there was ever a person who believed that they were saved with 100% certainty, but actually weren’t, then how can anyone say with 100% certainty that they aren’t one of those? After all, noone can predict the future, and that’s exactly what you’d have to do to insure that you’re not a part of the group that believes they are saved, but are actually not.

Anyway, that’s the argument that I came up with this morning should I be visited again. Do you see any problems/holes?

-CK

 

[CB_Catholic]

OK, so this might be a bit off my original topic, but it’s somewhat related, and it is my thread, so I think I’m allowed . I was thinking this morning about the incident that caused me to start this thread and different ways to handle it. It occured to me that there is a critical flaw in their line of thinking. One of their main points was that they were 100% certain that they would go to heaven upon their death. While this sounds great, it can be proven false with just one name - Judas. He was clearly a disciple, and if anyone would be “guaranteed” entry to heaven, it should be the people that followed Him on a daily basis while He was on earth (physically). However, due to his betrayal of Jesus, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that Judas made it to heaven. The most likely answer to this response, from the OSAS perspective, is that Judas wasn’t actually saved to begin with. If that is the case, then the argument is lost. Because if there was ever a person who believed that they were saved with 100% certainty, but actually weren’t, then how can anyone say with 100% certainty that they aren’t one of those? After all, noone can predict the future, and that’s exactly what you’d have to do to insure that you’re not a part of the group that believes they are saved, but are actually not.

Anyway, that’s the argument that I came up with this morning should I be visited again. Do you see any problems/holes?

-CK

Here’s the thing that gets me about OSAS thinking–if you backslide, then you weren’t really saved to begin with. So then you have to repent and get saved all over again. Oh, I sinned again, now was I really saved? Must not be, I have to go up to that altar call again. I know people who have gone up and gotten saved 2 or 3 times. Now how is that an assurance of salvation? Was I really saved the first time, or only think I was saved, but here I’ve sinned, so no I really wasn’t saved. It makes my head spin…HOW CAN YOU REALLY KNOW YOU ARE SAVED? CAUSE IF YOU BACKSLIDE, YOU WEREN’T REALLY SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!!! It is the stuff of an OCD’s nightmare.

 

[Monica4316]

Here’s the thing that gets me about OSAS thinking–if you backslide, then you weren’t really saved to begin with. So then you have to repent and get saved all over again. Oh, I sinned again, now was I really saved? Must not be, I have to go up to that altar call again. I know people who have gone up and gotten saved 2 or 3 times. Now how is that an assurance of salvation? Was I really saved the first time, or only think I was saved, but here I’ve sinned, so no I really wasn’t saved. It makes my head spin…HOW CAN YOU REALLY KNOW YOU ARE SAVED? CAUSE IF YOU BACKSLIDE, YOU WEREN’T REALLY SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!!! It is the stuff of an OCD’s nightmare.

wow… YES. I see what you mean.

 

[MarkBrown]

OK, so this might be a bit off my original topic, but it’s somewhat related, and it is my thread, so I think I’m allowed . I was thinking this morning about the incident that caused me to start this thread and different ways to handle it. It occured to me that there is a critical flaw in their line of thinking. One of their main points was that they were 100% certain that they would go to heaven upon their death. While this sounds great, it can be proven false with just one name - Judas. He was clearly a disciple, and if anyone would be “guaranteed” entry to heaven, it should be the people that followed Him on a daily basis while He was on earth (physically). However, due to his betrayal of Jesus, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that Judas made it to heaven. The most likely answer to this response, from the OSAS perspective, is that Judas wasn’t actually saved to begin with. If that is the case, then the argument is lost. Because if there was ever a person who believed that they were saved with 100% certainty, but actually weren’t, then how can anyone say with 100% certainty that they aren’t one of those? After all, noone can predict the future, and that’s exactly what you’d have to do to insure that you’re not a part of the group that believes they are saved, but are actually not.

Anyway, that’s the argument that I came up with this morning should I be visited again. Do you see any problems/holes?

-CK

Matthew 7:21-29 and 1 John 2:19 would be used to counter your argument. The first Jesus tells us not all who call Him Lord are Saved. Not all who do wonders or good things in His name are saved. St John the Apostle tells us they left us, because they were never one of us. So in thier reasoning Judas was never saved and is not in heaven as we speak. (or type).

Backsliding is “allowed” as is repenting of sins. OSAS does not look at multiple “salvation experiences”. So a backslider would not be resaved as the OSAS belief holds. OSAS does not state you will never sin, that is a mis interpretation of the belief. The belief holds that sin will never seperate you from God, once you have claimed salvation through Christ. Hence no need of sacraments etc. Why the Eucharist is symbolic and a remembrance. If the Baptist church still has a table, which they at times call an altar, it is the remembrance table. The Lords table. Some call the Eucharist a memorial and hold it in the same regard as our Memorial Day holiday. Most Americans have no idea what it is about, except a holiday from work, beginning of summer. The true meaning is lost. Same with SOME protestants and a SOME catholics.

They will point to St Peter, the thief on the cross, Paul writing about Abraham belief etc etc etc. as to belief saving you, not actions. You can not get into a verse war with a Baptist. It is part of the basic training they get at church . You have to get them to look at scripture from the first verse in Gensis to the last verse in Revelation. A long process to be sure. Can it be done…sure ask Fr. Mike. Spending time with me over a period of months helped me to see the fullness of scripture.

 

[MarkBrown]

Here’s the thing that gets me about OSAS thinking–if you backslide, then you weren’t really saved to begin with. So then you have to repent and get saved all over again. Oh, I sinned again, now was I really saved? Must not be, I have to go up to that altar call again. I know people who have gone up and gotten saved 2 or 3 times. Now how is that an assurance of salvation? Was I really saved the first time, or only think I was saved, but here I’ve sinned, so no I really wasn’t saved. It makes my head spin…HOW CAN YOU REALLY KNOW YOU ARE SAVED? CAUSE IF YOU BACKSLIDE, YOU WEREN’T REALLY SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!!! It is the stuff of an OCD’s nightmare.

Backsliding is not loss of salvation to OSAS. OSAS has allowances for rededication, hence some one who was a backslider will come forth to re affirm the salvation they already have recieved. This has lead to also sorts of abuse through ignorance, as a teenager I had a friend who walked the aisle 4 times between 14 and 18. Became a running joke in youth group.

As a Baptist Pastor I buried many people, mainly relatives of congregation members, who were presented as good christian. They were saved. When I asked why their pastor was not going to bury them, I got many various answers. All coming down to “Uncle Billy walke the aisle at age 10 and was saved.” Since then Uncle Billy lived like a demon, never darkened the door of a church, rejected the teachings of Christ and the commands of God. But he walked an aisle and was saved. Nothing can ever seperate you from the love of God. OSAS.

Now we all know catholics who hold to a form of this belief. Was baptized, took communion and was confirmed. Live a life not following Church teachings, not obedient to Christ and believe God gives us suggestions not commandments. They believe they are saved “well I am basically good.” I evangelized this type of catholic all the time as a baptist. On the college campus they abound. In the work place and even in the church.

So while we beat up on the baptist and their beliefs, let us remember the beam in our own eye. I know I need too.

 

[MarkBrown]

Unfortunately, I couldn’t remember most of my admittedly meager apologetics, so I know I didn’t shake their faith, but they didn’t come close to shaking mine either. .

-CK

We should not be trying to shake the faith of any Christian. Correct error, ya betcha. When dealing with fellow Christians we should be careful and not try to “win” the battle. Especially if it could cause them to shake their faith.

If I have misunderstood your post, please forgive me.

 

[Catholic_Kenpo]

We should not be trying to shake the faith of any Christian. Correct error, ya betcha. When dealing with fellow Christians we should be careful and not try to “win” the battle. Especially if it could cause them to shake their faith.

If I have misunderstood your post, please forgive me.

My apologies. I think that part of my post was poorly worded. I didn’t mean that I wanted them to leave the Christian faith, only to get them to understand the errors that they were currently embracing.

-CK

 

[IrishAm]

I usually mention that a person can be 100% sure and still wrong . . . Got a lot of those types in my opinionated Irish family!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I’m sitting here watching daily Mass on EWTN while I wait for 24 to start and the doorbell rings. I live alone and the only friends I have in the area would call before coming over, so I was a bit hesitant to answer the door as it was most assuredly someone I wouldn’t want to talk to. I answered anyway, just out of curiosity, and my first hunch was right. Standing on my doorstep was a gentleman in a coat and tie (probably in his 40’s), a younger guy and a young lady. The young lady wanted to know if I would like to take a survey on spirituality. Being that this is a subject of great interest to me, I agreed. She started with some rather generic questions: would I consider myself more spiritual/religious than I was 5 years ago, what church I attend, etc. Then she proceeded to ask some questions that, quite honestly, I thought were quite poorly worded. Things like what does Jesus mean to me and the like. Turns out they were Baptists that were a part of the group Evangelization Explosion. Apparently, it concerned them that I wasn’t 100% certain that I would gain entrance to heaven upon my death. They gave me some kind of booklet to read before leaving (I don’t know what it said, it’s in the trash now). Unfortunately, I couldn’t remember most of my admittedly meager apologetics, so I know I didn’t shake their faith, but they didn’t come close to shaking mine either. It wasn’t a stellar performance, but I’m really not accustomed to defending the faith yet. This was actually the first time I’d ever had anybody come to my door to try to convert me, so it was a new experience.

-CK

You’re so lucky! I love those types of opportunities. The very fact that they didn’t “shake” your faith in and of itself probably shook theirs a little. I used to be a Baptist, but never heard of Baptists going door to door. If you remember their names, pray for their conversion by name. The way it ended, did it seem like they’d be coming back? If so, you can prepare a little so you’ll be more ready to defend our Catholic Faith. If they do come back, tell them you know of someone who used to be a Baptist and now is a Roman Catholic and then immediately ask them when are they going to become Catholic - ask it with confidence and act surprised if they seem shocked by the idea. After all, all true Christians become Catholics eventually, either this side or the other side of Heaven.

 

[leonie]

I think the best advice I ever heard about evangelizing door to door missionaries is to just share your testimony. Many Protestants and Mormons don’t consider Catholics to be Christians. So, showing that you love God and have the Holy Spirit in your life is the best witness. I actually heard this advice on CA radio in regards to Mormons. A Catholic seminarian who was formerly a Mormon missionary said that hearing testimonies by Christians was the key to his conversion.

I think it’s a mistake to treat the situation on a strictly intellectual basis. But, most people say that learning apologetics in order to defend the faith is very strengthening for themselves even if they never use it to evangelizing others.