L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
RSisco
Don’t come in here and accuse the Catechism of being deceptive:tsktsk:
- Status
Don’t come in here and accuse the Catechism of being deceptive:tsktsk:
G
Genesis315
Guest
Robert in SD:
I don’t think I ever called them satan worshippers.Call a wolf a wolf. I have no problem with that. But don’t call someone laboring under the heresy of Islam a satan worshipper. Even a cursory review of Islam reveals they are clearly not worshipping Satan. Although they are in serious error, they are worshipping the same God that is recognized by the Jews and that we recognize as the first Person of the Trinity. So, call the Muslims heretics if you want to be “firm” but don’t call them devil worshippers.
By your rationale, one slips into Satan worship as soon as one slips into heresy. If so, then every protestant and every orthodox christian must worship Satan!Preposterous!
1
1ke
Guest
Ok, now it’s confirmed. You are a nutcase.
U
USCatholic
Guest
Those who heard about Jesus and rejected him have no place in the kingdom of God.
U
USCatholic
Guest
I have to disagree.
I think the key word/sentence is:
…together with us they adore the one, merciful God,
which is not true.
Muhammad lied and made his followers believe that the god of his invention is the same Judeo-Christian God.
The Catholic Church knows that, the experts who wrote the Catechism, or Vatican II documents know that. It is sad that they don’t want to tell the Truth.
I will write extensively about that subject. I feel real sad. My Church is afraid of mortals, and is trying to please mortals and not their Creator, and her Founder.
The Holy See, it seems to me, has no trust, no confidence and no faith in God.
Pleasing humans/creatures -out of fear and for political correctness- is more important for my Church than obeying and pleasing Jesus, her Creator.
S
Sarah_Jane
Guest
Must I believe that Muslims worship my God?
forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=242811&postcount=2
forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=242811&postcount=2
U
USCatholic
Guest
This is USCatholic and my replies are in italics and bold !
Magicsilence:
Lets see then:
1 - The Catholic Church is clearly saying (hmm, id have to disagree, i dont think the message is crystal clear) to the Muslims that “we, Catholics of the World, are acknowledging the truthfulness and the authenticity of your religion, since our both God is the same, is ONE.”
(Do we recognise the authenticity of their religion?, or their practices (in general with regard to the peaceful muslims, or their God ( creator of the heavens and earth). )
**The text speaks for itself. If you submit that the God is One, consequently, you have to acknowledge the authenticity of their religion, since the same ONE God cannot make mistakes. That is how a lay person will see it. **
2 - Based on the above (which isnt as correct as you made it out to be), why the Catholic Church doesn’t ask her followers to convert to Islam, since the God is One, and the Church clearly says in her Catechism that** “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”**
(I wasnt aware that was in the catechism, but remember we are respecting the muslims for recognising that there is only one God who sent Jesus down to preach to the world, they got lost after this, but its not their fault, blame Muhammed)
Why?
(Question here is why not, because Islam is a shameless religion that promotes violence, homosexuality, peadophilia, rape, reducing womens equal status to almost nothing and many more. False Islam is the one most follow and that is a peaceful religion, im pretty sure the pope knows the difference, and thus doesnt ask us to convert to “Islam”, though he might do well to ask the False Islamists to become Catholics.)
**How come the Catholic Church respects a “religion” characterized by all the horrible things you mentioned about. It is double talk, it is hypocrisy, it is not honest, it is political correctness on the part of the Church. **
3 - But, wait a minute, I’m confused now, how come the god of Islam is ONE, and the Christian God is 3 in 1?
(Three in one, denotes one in a specific form, can therfore be synonymous with the islamic God) If Islam denies Jesus as God, his Resurection and the Trinity, how come the Catechism is saying that both Gods are the same?
( God is God, he doesnt cease to be because you dont believe in some part of him) Something is wrong here. Shouldn’t the God of both religions be of the same nature? I clearly see two very different Gods here.}
( Remember, the muslims worship God but do not know him, their twisted Koran has warped their minds but they are still worshipping God, hence the lack of a name, Allah just means God)
***I made up a new religion. I choose the Judeo-Christian God as my God too. I said to everybody that I’m his new prophet. Does it mean that my new religion is authentic, truthful? That what Muhammad did. Why the Catholic Church is acknowledging a lie? * **
4 - Also, If it’s the same God, then why Muhammad killed the Christians and the Jews and kicked the rest of them out of Arabia?
(Simple, if you were creating a religion that was a joke, youd need to make it viable in some form, Muhammed’s response, kill all other religions)
Shouldn’t two or three faiths be united and live together in peace, since they have the same God?
(Essentially, the Jews and ourselves worship the same God, but we do not therefore worship together, our beliefs and understandings vary differently.)
Why the “prophet” of Islam hated the Jews and the Christians, I don’t understand. Maybe the Catholic Church knows something about that. I couldn’t find any explanation in the Catechism about the genocide against the Christians and Jews by Muhammad.
**Christianism is a completion, an extention, if you will, of the Revelation to the Jews. It is a totally different concept of Islam’s connection to the Judeo-Christian God or religion… **
5 - Now, if the God is one, then the faith should be one. Will the Pope renounce his papacy, become a Muslim and move to Mecca, since Ecumenism, Unity, Conciliation, Compromise, Brotherly love, and Charity are some of the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church?
(Would you denounce the true religion, or try and make peace with some slightly deluded friends and try and convert them, JP2 chose option B)
Or it’s just talk?
Allow me to say that John-Paul II was not telling the Truth about Islam. He was playing the politically correct card. He was not being honest about Islam, not with his followers, not with the Muslims. “The Truth shall set you free.” I guess John-Paul II didn’t know how it feels to tell the TRUTH.
6 - If the God is one, why the Muslims are persecuting and conduction mass-muder against the Christians until this very moment.
(Koran = violence, Muslims obey Koran, = violence against Christians)
If the Quran is what you mentioned, then by recognizing Islam as a religion of the One same God and its Quran (since it comes also from the One same God), the Catholic Church, consequently approves the teachings of Islam (same God, isn’t it? And the One same God cannot make mistakes, right?).
Magicsilence:
Lets see then:
1 - The Catholic Church is clearly saying (hmm, id have to disagree, i dont think the message is crystal clear) to the Muslims that “we, Catholics of the World, are acknowledging the truthfulness and the authenticity of your religion, since our both God is the same, is ONE.”
(Do we recognise the authenticity of their religion?, or their practices (in general with regard to the peaceful muslims, or their God ( creator of the heavens and earth). )
**The text speaks for itself. If you submit that the God is One, consequently, you have to acknowledge the authenticity of their religion, since the same ONE God cannot make mistakes. That is how a lay person will see it. **
2 - Based on the above (which isnt as correct as you made it out to be), why the Catholic Church doesn’t ask her followers to convert to Islam, since the God is One, and the Church clearly says in her Catechism that** “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”**
(I wasnt aware that was in the catechism, but remember we are respecting the muslims for recognising that there is only one God who sent Jesus down to preach to the world, they got lost after this, but its not their fault, blame Muhammed)
Why?
(Question here is why not, because Islam is a shameless religion that promotes violence, homosexuality, peadophilia, rape, reducing womens equal status to almost nothing and many more. False Islam is the one most follow and that is a peaceful religion, im pretty sure the pope knows the difference, and thus doesnt ask us to convert to “Islam”, though he might do well to ask the False Islamists to become Catholics.)
**How come the Catholic Church respects a “religion” characterized by all the horrible things you mentioned about. It is double talk, it is hypocrisy, it is not honest, it is political correctness on the part of the Church. **
3 - But, wait a minute, I’m confused now, how come the god of Islam is ONE, and the Christian God is 3 in 1?
(Three in one, denotes one in a specific form, can therfore be synonymous with the islamic God) If Islam denies Jesus as God, his Resurection and the Trinity, how come the Catechism is saying that both Gods are the same?
( God is God, he doesnt cease to be because you dont believe in some part of him) Something is wrong here. Shouldn’t the God of both religions be of the same nature? I clearly see two very different Gods here.}
( Remember, the muslims worship God but do not know him, their twisted Koran has warped their minds but they are still worshipping God, hence the lack of a name, Allah just means God)
***I made up a new religion. I choose the Judeo-Christian God as my God too. I said to everybody that I’m his new prophet. Does it mean that my new religion is authentic, truthful? That what Muhammad did. Why the Catholic Church is acknowledging a lie? * **
4 - Also, If it’s the same God, then why Muhammad killed the Christians and the Jews and kicked the rest of them out of Arabia?
(Simple, if you were creating a religion that was a joke, youd need to make it viable in some form, Muhammed’s response, kill all other religions)
Shouldn’t two or three faiths be united and live together in peace, since they have the same God?
(Essentially, the Jews and ourselves worship the same God, but we do not therefore worship together, our beliefs and understandings vary differently.)
Why the “prophet” of Islam hated the Jews and the Christians, I don’t understand. Maybe the Catholic Church knows something about that. I couldn’t find any explanation in the Catechism about the genocide against the Christians and Jews by Muhammad.
**Christianism is a completion, an extention, if you will, of the Revelation to the Jews. It is a totally different concept of Islam’s connection to the Judeo-Christian God or religion… **
5 - Now, if the God is one, then the faith should be one. Will the Pope renounce his papacy, become a Muslim and move to Mecca, since Ecumenism, Unity, Conciliation, Compromise, Brotherly love, and Charity are some of the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church?
(Would you denounce the true religion, or try and make peace with some slightly deluded friends and try and convert them, JP2 chose option B)
Or it’s just talk?
Allow me to say that John-Paul II was not telling the Truth about Islam. He was playing the politically correct card. He was not being honest about Islam, not with his followers, not with the Muslims. “The Truth shall set you free.” I guess John-Paul II didn’t know how it feels to tell the TRUTH.
6 - If the God is one, why the Muslims are persecuting and conduction mass-muder against the Christians until this very moment.
(Koran = violence, Muslims obey Koran, = violence against Christians)
If the Quran is what you mentioned, then by recognizing Islam as a religion of the One same God and its Quran (since it comes also from the One same God), the Catholic Church, consequently approves the teachings of Islam (same God, isn’t it? And the One same God cannot make mistakes, right?).
U
USCatholic
Guest
God is a serious business. The Papacy is -supposedly- a serious business.
Every word counts, every move and gesture count, when it comes to the Pope.
We cannot say whatever we want to say about God. We cannot play with God.
“God of Islam is same as our God” and B.S. like that, and kissing the Quran.
You bet, it is serious.
In the Catechism, the official written teaching of the Catholic Church, that is taught to kids, lay people, seminarists, etc… when you say a lie like “god of Islam is also the God of the Catholic Church”, then you are in trouble. You lost your faith in the TRUE God.
We cannot and should not compromise, we cannot and should not play political correctness, we cannot and should not LIE to please mortal human creatures.
But obviously, the Holy See has lost faith in Jesus.
S
Scotty_PGH
Guest
That’s not what Jesus says: "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
S
Scotty_PGH
Guest
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)
“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:
Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)
“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:
Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
S
Sarah_Jane
Guest
“It is known to Us and to you that those who labor in invincible ignorance concerning our most holy religion and who, assiduously observing the natural law and its precepts which God has inscribed in the hearts of all, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life can, through the working of the divine light and grace, attain eternal life.” (Pius IX, Singulari Quadam)
A
aridite
Guest
Some people seem to be getting confused. Just by saying that Muslims worship the same One True God that we Catholics do, one is not thereby saying that Muslims are all saved, or that there is no difference between Muslims and Catholics, or that it is not necessary to try to show all people the truth of the Gospel. I really do not understand why practically every thread on this board devolves into EENS ! EENS is the constant teaching of the Church but it includes the (however remote) possibility God may work outside the bounds of the visible Church. End of story. Still, even if they are still in need of salvation, adherents of non-Catholic religions do know some truth about God – some more than others. All of these seem perfectly compatible truths which avoid indifferentism or excessive rigorism.
Am I crazy? I wonder how long non-Catholics hang around to hear any words of sanity?!?
Am I crazy? I wonder how long non-Catholics hang around to hear any words of sanity?!?
R
RSiscoe
Guest
Do you remember that part of the Bible where Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews that they “build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just, and say: If we had been in the days of our Fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets” (Mt. 23:29-30).
Do you know what our Lord meant by that? He meant that, although the Pharisees claimed to honor the saints who had been put to death in their day for speaking the truth, actually, if they lived in their day, they would have been the ones putting them to death. They claimed to be like the saints who were put to death, but actually they were like those who put them to death: “Wherefore” said Jesus, “you are witnesses against youselves, that you are the sons of them that killed the prophets” (ibid. vs 31)
Now, you claimed that I am a “nutcase” for quoting the portion of John’s Gospel and drawing the obvious conclusion. To you, my obvious conclusion seemed crazy.
Well, I am going to quote a saint of the Church. This quote comes from St. John Chrysostom, one of the very well known, and often quoted, Church Fathers. If you had a problem with what I wrote, you better sit down before you read the following words of this saint.
St. John Chrysostom::
Jews are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of prostitution, a liar of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule**, the domicile of the devil, as is also the soul of the Jew**. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil: their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion is a disease; their synagogue is an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition. Why are Jew so degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ. This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation and woes. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was the work of God, not of emperors. It was done by the wrath of God and because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. Thus, the Jew will live under the yoke of slavery to the end. God hates the Jews, and on judgment day He will say to those who sympathize with them: ‘Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!’. Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and, far from venerating the synagogue, hold it in hatred and aversion”. (Sixth Homilies against the Jews)
Now, I have many more quotes from the Church fathers that basically say the same thing. So, here is the question: do you agree with Saint John Chrysostom (and the other saints who said similar things), or do you consider them “nutcases”? If you agree with them, please tell me why you had any problem with what I wrote. If you don’t agree with them “you are witness against yousel[f]…” (Mt 23:31)
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
with regard to the quotes of St. John Chysostem,
all I can say, is thank goodness God sent the Holy Spirit to more clearly reveal His intent for His people.
God will not abandon the Jews, ever. It is His covenant with them.
They may abandon Him, as they have before, but as before, He will lead them back to Him one way or another.
Because the teachings of the Church have shown us a clearer picture of God’s plan which includes the Jews and reaches out to other faiths, it becomes obvious that God is calling on His Church to reach out to all souls, as He intended from day one to bring all souls to Him.
How can we fulfill our obligation to bring all souls to Christ through His Church if we won’t even talk to them???
The current teaching of the Church makes sense to me.
all I can say, is thank goodness God sent the Holy Spirit to more clearly reveal His intent for His people.
God will not abandon the Jews, ever. It is His covenant with them.
They may abandon Him, as they have before, but as before, He will lead them back to Him one way or another.
Because the teachings of the Church have shown us a clearer picture of God’s plan which includes the Jews and reaches out to other faiths, it becomes obvious that God is calling on His Church to reach out to all souls, as He intended from day one to bring all souls to Him.
How can we fulfill our obligation to bring all souls to Christ through His Church if we won’t even talk to them???
The current teaching of the Church makes sense to me.
J
JGC
Guest
Scotty PGH said:
Ignore the Rad trads!
On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church **Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
**
The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind.
Alongside this strong insistence on the need for belonging to the Church was another Tradition from the earliest times that is less well known. It was understandable that the early Christian writers would emphasize what is part of revelation, that Christ founded “the Catholic Church which alone retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the home of faith; this, the temple of God.” (37) They were combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting the heresies that divided Christianity in the Mediterranean world and paved the way for the rise of Islam in the seventh century.
But they also had the biblical narrative of the “pagan” Cornelius who, the Acts tell us, was “an upright and God-fearing man” even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were “God-fearing” people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some “invincible obstacle stands in the way” of his baptism and entrance into the Church.
Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.
It would be inaccurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the Church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church’s magisterium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox.
Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,” there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM
J
JGC
Guest
Which is why I spend time ensuring non-Catholic visitors to this forum know of the Church’s teaching in this area and not misled by rad trad ‘rigourist EENS’ or whatever you want to call it.
J
JGC
Guest
Dialogue on “Salvation Outside the Church” and Alleged Catholic Magisterial Contradictions
web.archive.org/web/20040218182856/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ232.HTM
J
JGC
Guest
Disgusting quote? From
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the result of very extensive collaboration; it was prepared over six years of intense work done in a spirit of complete openness and fervent zeal.
In 1986, I entrusted a commission of twelve Cardinals and Bishops, chaired by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, with the task of preparing a draft of the catechism requested by the Synod Fathers. An editorial committee of seven diocesan Bishops, experts in theology and catechesis, assisted the commission in its work.
The commission, charged with giving directives and with overseeing the course of the work, attentively followed all the stages in editing the nine subsequent drafts. The editorial committee, for its part, assumed responsibility for writing the text, making the emendations requested by the commission and examining the observations of numerous theologians, exegetes and catechists, and above all, of the Bishops of the whole world, in order to produce a better text. In the committee various opinions were compared with great profit, and thus a richer text has resulted whose unity and coherence are assured.
The project was the object of extensive consultation among all Catholic Bishops, their Episcopal Conferences or Synods, and theological and catechetical institutes. As a whole, it received a broadly favorable acceptance on the part of the Episcopate. It can be said that this Catechism is the result of the collaboration of the whole Episcopate of the Catholic Church, who generously accepted my invitation to share responsibility for an enterprise which directly concerns the life of the Church. This response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy, because the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the “symphony” of the faith. The achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies to the Church’s catholicity.
scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm
J
JGC
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the result of very extensive collaboration; it was prepared over six years of intense work done in a spirit of complete openness and fervent zeal.
In 1986, I entrusted a commission of twelve Cardinals and Bishops, chaired by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, with the task of preparing a draft of the catechism requested by the Synod Fathers. An editorial committee of seven diocesan Bishops, experts in theology and catechesis, assisted the commission in its work.
The commission, charged with giving directives and with overseeing the course of the work, attentively followed all the stages in editing the nine subsequent drafts. The editorial committee, for its part, assumed responsibility for writing the text, making the emendations requested by the commission and examining the observations of numerous theologians, exegetes and catechists, and above all, of the Bishops of the whole world, in order to produce a better text. In the committee various opinions were compared with great profit, and thus a richer text has resulted whose unity and coherence are assured.
The project was the object of extensive consultation among all Catholic Bishops, their Episcopal Conferences or Synods, and theological and catechetical institutes. As a whole, it received a broadly favorable acceptance on the part of the Episcopate. It can be said that this Catechism is the result of the collaboration of the whole Episcopate of the Catholic Church, who generously accepted my invitation to share responsibility for an enterprise which directly concerns the life of the Church. This response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy, because the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the “symphony” of the faith. The achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies to the Church’s catholicity.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.
scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm
T
Therese_Martin
Guest
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