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Zenas
Guest
Yes. Otherwise this would not be such a puzzling passage.
I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God
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LilyM
Guest
So you think Jesus could’ve given the Apostles vinegar to drink at the Last Supper? And that what he drinks in celebration and triumph with His apostles will be VINEGAR? C’mon, it clearly means wine!
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Lev23
Guest
The sour wine taken on the cross was not in a “cup”, and if you believe the Last Supper was a passover sedar, the wine served at passover is a special wine, different than any other time during the year.
The sponge on the cross therefore cannot be the fourth cup.
**John 19:28-29
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I thirst.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
The scripture fulfilled-
Psalm 69-21
They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.**
“It is finished.”, is what the Priest serving at the Tabernacle would say at the end of the day when the sacrifices would be finished.
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NotWorthy
Guest
No, I didn’t say that.
Jesus says he will not drink again from **the **fruit of the vine. He doesn’t see he will not drink again from **this **fruit of the vine. There’s no contradiction, there.
Look closely Lily. Jesus drinks 3 of the 4 cups. Then on the Cross, Jesus says (to fulfill the Scriptures) I thirst. Then Jesus says after drinking it, the words that end a Passover Feast, “It is finished (or consummated).”
Let me ask you, what Scriptures did Jesus fulfill by thirsting? Could it have been the Scriptures that tell of the Passover Feast?
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Nita
Guest
Very interesting thought NotWorthy. Brings to mind the parable about the old and new wine.
It may well be that the wine taken by Our Lord on the cross (John 19:28-30) was the fourth cup. As such it would have been part of the OT Passover liturgy - Old Testament wine, so to speak. But I don’t see it as connected to Our Lord’s statement that He would “not drink again…” (Mt 26:18-29; Mk 14:24-25; Lk 22:14-20). The fourth cup was a part of the Old Covenant liturgical rite. The context of the synoptic passages under discussion is the wine of the New Covenant - consecrated wine.
(Mt 26:28 “this is my blood of the new covenant…” also Lk 22:20)
Nita
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SPH1
Guest
I agree. Christ never drank of consecrated wine between the Last Supper and his death on the Cross.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
if you read the passages carefully, yes “with you” means that they all will be drinking wine together at the banquet of the righteous.
Isaiah 25:6
On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines.
If you had a Jewish background, you would have known about the banquet of the righteous, and realise that is what Jesus was referring too.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
No, “fruit of the vine” is a idiom for good olde wine.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
The Four Cups of Wine for Passover / Pesach
Origin - Meaning - History - The Four Cups of Wine for Passover / Pesach
The Four Cups of wine used in the Pesach / Passover Seder symbolize the four distinct redemptions promised by G-d to the Hebrews as told in Exodus 6:6-7. (1) “I will take you out of Egypt”, (2) “I will deliver you from Egyptian slavery”, (3) “I will redeem you with a demonstration of my power”, and (4) “I will acquire you as a nation”. Since each of these cups of wine symbolize an action that was performed by G-d, Jews fill a small cup or small wine glass with wine at four different points in the Passover seder and drink each cup of wine. Drinking from The Four Cups also tells us that we can actively pursue these goals ourselves, meaning that we can actively free ourselves from whatever enslaves us. These are positive goals to salute by having a drink! There is a fifth cup of wine called “The Cup of Elijah” and it is reserved for Elijah the Prophet, who is believed to visit each Passover seder that takes place around the world. The fifth cup of wine is also an expression of redemption for all in future times and because this has not occurred yet, it is not drunk. The origin of The Four Cups of wine dates from rabbinical opinions contained in the Jerusalem Talmud (Pesachim 10:1). The Pesachim tractate of the Talmud comprises rabbinical opinions concerning performing various Passover rituals. Pesachim 10:1 states the following: “And they should not give him less than 4 cups of wine, even from the charity bin.” This means that every person - whether rich or poor - should be given four cups of wine to celebrate redemption and freedom. Whereas matzah’s bland taste symbolized the hardships of slavery in Egypt, the rich and strong taste of wine corresponds to the richness and strength that the Hebrews felt once they stopped believing the idea of worshipping Egyptian idols and instead chose to worship G-d during their wanderings in the Sinai Desert after they left Egypt. And just where did the rabbis themselves determine the idea of instituting four cups of wine? The rabbis were these instructions in the Pesachim tractate of the Talmud during the time of Roman rule in Palestine, and during that time it was customary at Roman feasts or banquets to begin the festivities by drinking wine. This was followed by going into the dining hall and eating the main meal which was accompanied by more wine. At the end of the main meal, more wine would be served to the guests. The rabbis of Roman times in Palestine added a fourth cup of wine - the kiddush cup - to sanctify G-d and His merciful deeds, which established the four cups of wine as mandatory for the Passover seder: (1) the first cup of wine drunk for kiddush; (2) the second cup of wine drunk just before the main meal; (3) the third cup of wine drunk after the “Grace After Meals” ritual; and (4) the fourth cup of wine drunk after the conclusion of “Hallel” which the near the end of the Passover seder. The addition of a 5th cup was disputed by many rabbis at that time, and so a 5th cup, called the “Cup of Elijah”, was filled but not drunk. Over time, all the symbolic foods of Passover and even the wine used for the four cups developed various symbolic meanings attached to them. To read about the symbolic meanings connected with wine and the symbolic foods of Passover, check out either the Passover Home Page, or the Passover Seder page.
angelfire.com/pa2/passover/thefourcupsofwineforpassover.html
note Hallel, which consists of reciting Psalms 113-118, and I doubt Jesus recited those chapters while on the cross.
Origin - Meaning - History - The Four Cups of Wine for Passover / Pesach
The Four Cups of wine used in the Pesach / Passover Seder symbolize the four distinct redemptions promised by G-d to the Hebrews as told in Exodus 6:6-7. (1) “I will take you out of Egypt”, (2) “I will deliver you from Egyptian slavery”, (3) “I will redeem you with a demonstration of my power”, and (4) “I will acquire you as a nation”. Since each of these cups of wine symbolize an action that was performed by G-d, Jews fill a small cup or small wine glass with wine at four different points in the Passover seder and drink each cup of wine. Drinking from The Four Cups also tells us that we can actively pursue these goals ourselves, meaning that we can actively free ourselves from whatever enslaves us. These are positive goals to salute by having a drink! There is a fifth cup of wine called “The Cup of Elijah” and it is reserved for Elijah the Prophet, who is believed to visit each Passover seder that takes place around the world. The fifth cup of wine is also an expression of redemption for all in future times and because this has not occurred yet, it is not drunk. The origin of The Four Cups of wine dates from rabbinical opinions contained in the Jerusalem Talmud (Pesachim 10:1). The Pesachim tractate of the Talmud comprises rabbinical opinions concerning performing various Passover rituals. Pesachim 10:1 states the following: “And they should not give him less than 4 cups of wine, even from the charity bin.” This means that every person - whether rich or poor - should be given four cups of wine to celebrate redemption and freedom. Whereas matzah’s bland taste symbolized the hardships of slavery in Egypt, the rich and strong taste of wine corresponds to the richness and strength that the Hebrews felt once they stopped believing the idea of worshipping Egyptian idols and instead chose to worship G-d during their wanderings in the Sinai Desert after they left Egypt. And just where did the rabbis themselves determine the idea of instituting four cups of wine? The rabbis were these instructions in the Pesachim tractate of the Talmud during the time of Roman rule in Palestine, and during that time it was customary at Roman feasts or banquets to begin the festivities by drinking wine. This was followed by going into the dining hall and eating the main meal which was accompanied by more wine. At the end of the main meal, more wine would be served to the guests. The rabbis of Roman times in Palestine added a fourth cup of wine - the kiddush cup - to sanctify G-d and His merciful deeds, which established the four cups of wine as mandatory for the Passover seder: (1) the first cup of wine drunk for kiddush; (2) the second cup of wine drunk just before the main meal; (3) the third cup of wine drunk after the “Grace After Meals” ritual; and (4) the fourth cup of wine drunk after the conclusion of “Hallel” which the near the end of the Passover seder. The addition of a 5th cup was disputed by many rabbis at that time, and so a 5th cup, called the “Cup of Elijah”, was filled but not drunk. Over time, all the symbolic foods of Passover and even the wine used for the four cups developed various symbolic meanings attached to them. To read about the symbolic meanings connected with wine and the symbolic foods of Passover, check out either the Passover Home Page, or the Passover Seder page.
angelfire.com/pa2/passover/thefourcupsofwineforpassover.html
note Hallel, which consists of reciting Psalms 113-118, and I doubt Jesus recited those chapters while on the cross.
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Michael_G
Guest
For the record Christ took the wine/vingar only John was there only John makes note of this as well as a number of other things John makes note that are not in Mark, Mathew.
Joh 19:29 Now there was a vessel set there, full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar about hyssop, put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.
You all should read Scott’s Lamb super it is worth the read.
Now one might say that the wine vinager does not seem to fit christs words at the last never the less the wine/vinager sure fits the fourth cup of the passover. A completed passover is the only thing that fits in relation to the orginal passover and in relation to the liturgy-Mass Eucharist.
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Here is a link to Scott Hahn’s “The Fourth Cup” so you can read it in context. By the way, it is a little difficult to read the black on blue text-- I simply highlight the text like I’m going to cut and paste it–then it easier to read. I also recommend his book “The Lamb’s Supper” and his free Bible study, “The Bible and the Mass”
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Lev23
Guest
Again, the sponge that was put to his lips was not a “4th” cup of Passover wine, but a fulfillment of prophecy.
John 19:28-29
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I thirst.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
The scripture fulfilled-
Psalm 69-21
They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
In Jewish tradition of those days, the man who proposed marriage to the woman would raise up a cup of wine, and if the would-be bride agreed to the proposal of the marriage covenant, she would pick that cup up and drink from it. So if the cup Jesus raised was a marriage proposal to his bride, the passage “I will never drink of this fruit of the vine until…” would make sense if you take the wedding in heaven described in Revelation 19.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Good points! I’ve never heard of the marriage tradition. That’s one of the reasons its so important to be familiar with the culture of the day when these Scriptures were written. Too many people try and apply those words to today’s culture.
That dog just won’t hunt!
Back to the first point. I understand that the Church sees this as a Passion account prophesy. But the Scripture could certainly be seen from two levels. “It is Finished” for instance, is the last line of the Passover Feast after the group drinks from the Cup of Consummation. We understand that since Jesus and the Apostles left the Last Supper before the Passover Feast was over, then it could still be seen from the Cross as the end of the Passover Feast.
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NotWorthy
Guest
One last point on this comment: Although it becomes clear when read in light of Revelation 19, I bet it had the Apostles scratching their heads!!! Of course, Jesus seemed always to have the Apostles scratching their heads in confusion!!!
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
fourth cup still does not work, Jesus forgot to recite those 3 or 4 Psalms at length.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Are you sure? Weren’t those Psalms (were they the great Hallels?) sung during the Passover? Doesn’t one of the Synoptic Gospels talk of Jesus withdrawing to the Garden of Gethsemane after they finished singing?
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Zenas
Guest
“After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.” Matthew 26:30; also Mark 14:26. So the fourth cup fits in this regard. I’m just not sure about “drink[ing] it new in the kingdom of God.” However, the posters on this thread have provided more food for thought than I ever imagined would come forth on this topic.
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sjdrury
Guest
none of the gospel accounts gives much detail about the number of cups or which ones they drank. luke has only two cups (matthew and mark each have one if i remember correctly), and interestingly, Jesus says he won’t drink again in 22:18, but he takes another cup in verse 20. i think we’re reading into this way too much.
Jesus also says that he won’t take the meal either until its meaning is fulfilled. you’ll notice he doesn’t eat any bread on the cross.
i think he just needed to fulfill the last prophecy (psalm 22:15) before he died. by the way, that chapter is full of references to his death.
the easiest explanation is that he was saying he wouldn’t take the passover meal again with his disciples until he had died and risen again. then, all the saints would be reconciled to God and could come to communion again with him. as alistair begg says,“The main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things.”
Jesus also says that he won’t take the meal either until its meaning is fulfilled. you’ll notice he doesn’t eat any bread on the cross.
i think he just needed to fulfill the last prophecy (psalm 22:15) before he died. by the way, that chapter is full of references to his death.
the easiest explanation is that he was saying he wouldn’t take the passover meal again with his disciples until he had died and risen again. then, all the saints would be reconciled to God and could come to communion again with him. as alistair begg says,“The main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things.”
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NotWorthy
Guest
I’m sorry, but Luke does not say that Jesus ate or drank. of either the bread (verse 19) or the wine (verse 20).
It would seem that Jesus did NOT drink of the Fruit of the Vine just as He prophecied in verse 18.
- Status