Icrss

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Well, I have decided to contact the North American province of the ICRSS in a couple of weeks. I have been swapping emails with SummaTheo who is currently in preformation with them. At his advice I plan to email Msgr. Schmitz to inform him of my intentions.

Now, before I send the email I would just like to see if anyone has anything (good, bad or neutral) to say about the ICRSS. Speak now or forever hold your peace 😉
  • Jon
 
What I will say, is that they aren’t a religious order. They are, like the FSSP (and the SSPX…), a Society of Apostolic Life. They are NOT a society of Consecrated Life…

As such, I am a little wary of them. As Fr. Oppenheimer of the CRNJ (a traditional order that uses the tridentine liturgy) has said to me when we’ve dicussed the FSSP and ICR (whom he is actually good friends with), “The Tridentine liturgy is good, and important to our charism, but it is nothing you can base a life around.”

He and I agreed that the Tridentine Liturgy is excellent FUEL for the priestly or religious life, but it cannot be an end in itself. Many people entering the priesthood in these religious congregations not centered around growing in holiness of life under Vows…are just feteshizing and obsessing over and being elitist about a particular liturgy. The old rite is great, and I would impose it upon the entire Latin-Rite Church again if I were pope, but it cannot be an end in itself.

Tridentinism cannot be a charism in and of itself, it has to support some other charism. Now, I think that many of these Societies DO have valid other charisms (education, pastoral ministry, etc…) but a particular liturgy is not the same as a charism. As such beware of emphasizing the Tridentine over the Mass.
 
So an apostolic society devoted to celebrating a reverent liturgy and training good orthodox priests is bad? Hmm thats a novel concept.

Anyways as for the original poster, Msgr. Schmitz is great, I heard a sermon by him once and it was amazing in quality 👍
 
No. It’s not bad. It’s very good. But the traditional liturgy cannot be said to be a congregational charism in-and-of itself.

The idea that a specific liturgy itself can be a charism is a novel concept indeed! 50 years ago there were no congregations organized with their defining purpose being the celebration of a particular liturgy, remember. They used various liturgies, and for some Liturgy Itself was indeed their charism (especially for Canons and types of Monks), but a particular liturgy itself is not, and cannot be in the technical sense, a true charism for priestly or religious life.
 
Caesar said:
Well, I have decided to contact the North American province of the ICRSS in a couple of weeks. I have been swapping emails with SummaTheo who is currently in preformation with them. At his advice I plan to email Msgr. Schmitz to inform him of my intentions.

Now, before I send the email I would just like to see if anyone has anything (good, bad or neutral) to say about the ICRSS. Speak now or forever hold your peace 😉
  • Jon
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Ah…good to hear about SummaTheo again and that he’s discerning with ICRSS.

As for the ICRSS, what I have personally heard about them has been pretty good. From the images I have seen and what I have heard, ICRSS are concerned with the externals, making the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that they offer, just so beautiful. While some has criticised them for it, personally I think visible signs are important since Man is both flesh and spirit.

There is also a slight distinction between the FSSP and the ICRSS. ICRSS male members can be either Oblates or Priests. Recently they have a community of contemplative nuns attached to them as well. ICRSS although an apostolic society, still has its male members follow the rule of life according to secular canons.

According to my own understanding, discerning a vocation to ICRSS is also slightly different. One should in the first place be attracted to the spirituality of the 3 Patrons of ICRSS, St Benedict, St Thomas Aquinas and St Francis de Sales. After that one discovers the call within a call whether or not one is to be an Oblate of Priest. (Which is similiar to how discernment to the Carmelites, Dominicans, etc is)

May the Blessed Vigin Mary continue to intercede for you as you continue to discern.
 
Struggling said:
No. It’s not bad. It’s very good. But the traditional liturgy cannot be said to be a congregational charism in-and-of itself.

The idea that a specific liturgy itself can be a charism is a novel concept indeed! 50 years ago there were no congregations organized with their defining purpose being the celebration of a particular liturgy, remember. They used various liturgies, and for some Liturgy Itself was indeed their charism (especially for Canons and types of Monks), but a particular liturgy itself is not, and cannot be in the technical sense, a true charism for priestly or religious life.
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Yes and before the medicants there were no Apostolic religious orders either. A charism doesn’t have to always have existed in order to be a charism. Obviously the Pope disagrees with you as the previous Holy Father and the current are very supportive of the ICRSS and other societies similar to them. The liturgy is not the only charism they have, a charism as far as I can tell, is what makes the entire relgious order, congregation, or society who they are. Its the whole package and not just major points of focus.
 
The charism is the specific “angle” that the society plays to, it is what they are dedicated to, and the special way in which they achieve that.

“Reverent Liturgy” can be a charism, sure, but they must never confuse that with a *particular * liturgy.

No particular liturgical format can be a charism any more than a specific habit for clothing can be a charism. That is an external.

I very much support the ICR and FSSP, but there has to be some caution that their members remember their true charism. The institutes both have valid charism, valid apostolic ends involving the sanctification of their members, restoration of a sense of the sacred etc…but we must be sure that members don’t confuse that with obsession over a particular liturgy.

One becomes a priest to say mass, not “to say the tridentine mass”…they may prefer it, and I agree it is uncomparably better…but let’s not make a religion or vocation out of a* particular* liturgy…dedicating oneself to Prayer is good, dedicating oneself to a particular prayer can be the wrong emphasis…dedicating oneself to Liturgy is good, but it is missing the point if the person confuses this with devotion to a particular liturgy. You have to see the forest for the trees, a radical cultus of a particular form of liturgy cannot be an end in itself.
 
Struggling said:
I very much support the ICR and FSSP, but there has to be some caution that their members remember their true charism. The institutes both have valid charism, valid apostolic ends involving the sanctification of their members, restoration of a sense of the sacred etc…but we must be sure that members don’t confuse that with obsession over a particular liturgy.

One becomes a priest to say mass, not “to say the tridentine mass”…they may prefer it, and I agree it is uncomparably better…but let’s not make a religion or vocation out of a* particular* liturgy…dedicating oneself to Prayer is good, dedicating oneself to a particular prayer can be the wrong emphasis…dedicating oneself to Liturgy is good, but it is missing the point if the person confuses this with devotion to a particular liturgy. You have to see the forest for the trees, a radical cultus of a particular form of liturgy cannot be an end in itself.
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This does raise an intriguing hypothetical. And, while I don’t mean to hijack this thread, I will pose the thought here. What would come of these orders and their membership were a future pope ever to repress the Tridentine Liturgy again?
 
Struggling said:
No. It’s not bad. It’s very good. But the traditional liturgy cannot be said to be a congregational charism in-and-of itself.

The idea that a specific liturgy itself can be a charism is a novel concept indeed! 50 years ago there were no congregations organized with their defining purpose being the celebration of a particular liturgy, remember.
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50 years ago such a charism wasnt needed since there was no Novus Ordo. Today, such societies of priests are necessary to help increase the use of the Tridentine Mass.

Call me a pessimist, but I just cant see “a wide and generous application” of the Traditional Mass if we were to forget about these traditional priestly societies and let individuals bishops take care of it.
This does raise an intriguing hypothetical. And, while I don’t mean to hijack this thread, I will pose the thought here. What would come of these orders and their membership were a future pope ever to repress the Tridentine Liturgy again?
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In my honest opinion, these traditional orders and societies would probably go the way of the SSPX.
 
chicago said:
This does raise an intriguing hypothetical. And, while I don’t mean to hijack this thread, I will pose the thought here. What would come of these orders and their membership were a future pope ever to repress the Tridentine Liturgy again?
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The SSPX would double/triple in size.

I would hope that no future pope would make that mistake.
 
Caesar said:
In my honest opinion, these traditional orders and societies would probably go the way of the SSPX.
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Actually it would be alot better to see it in terms of the quality of the vocations. Leading Holy lives is especially important. Given time the Congregation for the Causes of Saints may have a disproportionately higher number of holy persons from Classical Latin Rite societies. 😛

It also would not be a fantasy to eventually see some Cardinal Deacons from Traditional Societies, and a collapse of the liberal orders. 😉

I do think however that the Traditional Orders would not go in the way of SSPX. The Church is reformed from within not without. At the height of the Arian heresy, St Athanasius inspite of all the persecutions, did not leave the Church.

Yet back to the subject of ICRSS, I do hold them in very high esteem. Though smaller than the FSSP, they are really solid. SSPX however is a different issue altogether 😉
 
Caesar said:
Call me a pessimist, but I just cant see “a wide and generous application” of the Traditional Mass if we were to forget about these traditional priestly societies and let individuals bishops take care of it.
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Agreed. But, then, is that properly a charism or an apostolate?
In my honest opinion, these traditional orders and societies would probably go the way of the SSPX.
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Well, if that is the case (and I should here note that I am generally in favor of such traditional societies), it does, however, raise concern about the genuiness of the “charism”.
 
chicago said:
Agreed. But, then, is that properly a charism or an apostolate?
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The charism of the Institute is based on the example of its three patron saints: Saint Benedict, with his love for the solemn celebration of the liturgy, his emphasis on work and prayer, and his role in laying the groundwork for an integral Christian civilization in medieval Europe; Saint Thomas Aquinas, with his emphasis on the harmony between faith and reason; and, Saint Francis de Sales, with the importance he attached to teaching the Catholic faith with patience and charity, and to encouraging all Catholics to seek a life of holiness through the ordinary means of the Church, such as devout attendance at Mass and frequent confession. - Wikipedia
 
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