If God and Satan are in a battle for souls and more souls are lost than saved, does it lessen God's omnipotence?

[4Horsemen]

To explain a bit more, if God and Satan are in a battle for souls and Satan win, i.e. more soouls are damned than saved, does this lessen God’s honor and glory and does it make Him less than omnipotent? I know it’s a hypotheical question, that the “battle is won” as Scripture tells us, so it must have been fixed from all eternity that God would win. Or is that the case?

(I hope this doesn’t sound too muddled).

 

[3bar17]

Where in the teaching of the Catholic Church does it say God and satan are in a battle for souls? How do you know with certainty that more souls are dammed than are saved?
We are to “work out our salavtion with fear and trembling” Philippians 2:12-13

 

[Ruthie]

Keep in mind that, if a person goes to Hell it is by their own choice. So if more are condemned than are saved, it is by their choice, not God’s.

All Satan can do is tempt us to sin. It is up to us to resist temptation.

No matter how things look now, God will win. Jesus will return in glory. So don’t worry about a battle between God and Satan; just work at resisting temptation. That will put you on God’s side.

“Dying, You destroyed our death,
Rising, you restored our life.
Lord Jesus, come in glory.”

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[Eucharisted]

God’s omnipotence is independant of outside things, because He is God.

Souls who do not want eternal life choose to go to Hell. So it is not God’s fault but a soul’s, for it is the soul which chooses poorly. God gives the soul every grace necessary for salvation at the hour of death, yet if the soul dose not want eternal life, than it has spurned God’s Mercy, and He will leave it in its misery (Hell). He dose not force anyone to love Him, nor He dose force anyone to accept eternal life, which is a great grace of His. (Graces are free and undeserving gifts of God’s Mercy which are given for man’s own good)

Satan has lost the battle against God at Calvary, when Jesus defeated sin and death, and this defeat will ultimately come to realization at the Second Coming of Jesus, when He will save His Church from her enemies and will judge the living and the dead. It is true that every damned soul is a victory for the devil in his struggle aganst God, but, ultimately, he has lost the war against Heaven. God asks us to help Him save souls by prayer and sacrifice; it is a mystey as to why He allows us to cooperate with Him.

God’s glory and honor is not diminished in Hell. It is true that, for every losr soul, that is one less soul who praises God in Heaven, but, the damned give glory to God’s Justice, for they are justly punished. Yet they do not give such glory willingly, but unwillingly, for if they could, they would cease to exist, just to spite God’s Justice, which they hate with all their being, since their wills are eternally set against goodness, in light of their choosing Hell. Moreover, God’s Mercy dose reach into Hell, not in the sense that He relieves the damned but in the sense that He dose not give them the punishments which they deserve. Indeed, if He punished them as they deserved, they would not be able to bear it. But He has pity even on them, and so, though they do suffer intensely, they do not suffer as much as they could. So, in that sense, they give glory to His Mercy. But again, it is unwillngly, for they hate His Mercy. They despise God with all their being and would like to see every creature join them in Hell, just to spite God, who is Justice, Mercy, Love - in a word, Goodness itself.

 

[tonyrey]

By giving us freedom God has already limited His power because we can frustrate His Will
and choose to be totally independent for all eternity. If everyone rejected His love there would obviously be no point in creating anyone. But if just one person chooses to love Him and share His joy do you think He would deprive that person of the opportunity to exist because of the selfishness and ingratitude of everyone else? No. God’s love is not based on calculation: it is unconditional…

 

[Shin]

Good to read these answers.

The devil serves the Lord, unwillingly as it were. He desires all the evils he does for the sake of sin and rebellion, but God transcends all the evil effects and either balances them with the scales of Justice, or turns their effects into good for the soul that suffers.

In other words, if the devil were to inspire a man to murder a Christian for the sake of the Faith, that Christian then dying for God willingly, would gain great merit in the eyes of God and be higher in Heaven, the evil in other words, would be turned to good – while the man who murdered the Christian at the inspiration of the devil would either be punished eventually in Hell, or redeemed through Christ and suffering in this life for His sake.

And the devil for each and every sin he commits, builds up greater punishment on the scales of justice for himself in Hell. This is how insane evil is – despite increasing its own pains with every action, it continues to commit evil, out of hatred for God and desire for goods separate from God.

 

[reggieM]

God and Satan are definitely in a battle for souls.

But I don’t think the number of the saved is a measure of God’s omnipotence, since God is relying on human freedom to choose salvation.

God has permitted evil to have a greater power on earth than good does. This “raises the bar” in the battle for each person’s salvation. The reason is that God wants to show how precious the final reward is – it requires our best effort.

Every person who chooses Satan’s path does so freely, and is given a chance by God to reach His Kingdom.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Where do you get the idea that more souls are lost than are saved?

 

[Oreoracle]

To explain a bit more, if God and Satan are in a battle for souls and Satan win, i.e. more soouls are damned than saved, does this lessen God’s honor and glory and does it make Him less than omnipotent? I know it’s a hypotheical question, that the “battle is won” as Scripture tells us, so it must have been fixed from all eternity that God would win. Or is that the case?

(I hope this doesn’t sound too muddled).

If God is omnipotent (and I use “omnipotent” in the most general way) he can do anything, meaning that he will always accomplish what he attempts. If the majority of souls are lost to Satan, it just means that God didn’t attempt to save those souls, at least not directly. So it wouldn’t mean that he’s less powerful, just that he doesn’t care enough to save the souls.

 

[Oreoracle]

Where do you get the idea that more souls are lost than are saved?

Please pay attention. The OP mentioned that it was a hypothetical question, a fixed scenario, etc.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Please pay attention. The OP mentioned that it was a hypothetical question, a fixed scenario, etc.

Pardon me but I am paying attention.

No where does he state that more souls being lost is part of the hypothetical. It is not all that clear. He does state that the battle is won but the battle can be won with more souls being lost than saved.

I was just curious where he got the idea that more souls are lost.

Also, this is an open forum. If you don’t like questions that do not fit what you think then I suggest you go elsewhere.

 

[Shin]

Where do you get the idea that more souls are lost than are saved?

One should generally get the idea from holy scripture, and the teachings of the Fathers and saints of the Church.

One third of the angels fell into Hell, but it is said that the majority of men do so.

Part of St. Leonard of Port Maurice’s work on the subject can be found here.

It’s not pleasant at first, but when one considers how with God’s will, all is good and perfect no matter how many or how few - it can be understood as part of God’s will.

While we are on this earth, God urges each individual out of love to return to Him – when the decision is made, and Justice is done, all is well either way absolutely, and even those in Hell know with perfect knowledge that their suffering is just – it is morally and justly perfectly good, and known to Heaven and Hell to be so.

For many are called but few are chosen. St. Mark 20:16

Lord, are there few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. St. Luke 13:23-24

Enter ye in at the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate and how strait is the way that leads to life, and few there are that find it! St. Matthew 7:13-14

Be one of the small number who find the way to life, and enter by the narrow gate into Heaven. Take care not to follow the majority and the common herd, so many of whom are lost. Do not be deceived; there are only two roads: one that leads to life and is narrow; the other that leads to death and is wide. There is no middle way.

St. Louis Marie de Montfort

 

[Oreoracle]

Pardon me but I am paying attention.

No where does he state that more souls being lost is part of the hypothetical. It is not all that clear. He does state that the battle is won but the battle can be won with more souls being lost than saved.

Okay, pay extra-special-attention to the part of his statement I’ve bolded for you below, then.

To explain a bit more, if God and Satan are in a battle for souls and Satan win, i.e. more soouls are damned than saved, does this lessen God’s honor and glory and does it make Him less than omnipotent? I know it’s a hypotheical question, that the “battle is won” as Scripture tells us, so it must have been fixed from all eternity that God would win. Or is that the case?

(I hope this doesn’t sound too muddled).

As for your suggestion, perhaps you should just take a nap.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Okay, pay extra-special-attention to the part of his statement I’ve bolded for you below, then.

As for your suggestion, perhaps you should just take a nap.

A little touchy there, maybe you need the nap.

So when one asks a hypotheical (a word which does not exist by the way) we can not ask questions about it?

Now if it was a hypothetical [bold emphasis added for your understanding] one, that would still not preclude the asking of questions.

I see that no one else has issues with questions being asked. Again, maybe you need the nap.

**hypotheical **

 

[reggieM]

If God is omnipotent (and I use “omnipotent” in the most general way) he can do anything, meaning that he will always accomplish what he attempts. If the majority of souls are lost to Satan, it just means that God didn’t attempt to save those souls, at least not directly. So it wouldn’t mean that he’s less powerful, just that he doesn’t care enough to save the souls.

I think you were right in this comment all the way to the last phrase …

Yes, God *can *do anything. In the case of human salvation, in order to preserve the true meaning of freedom – God does not force anyone to be saved. Could He? Yes, definitely. God could create people and determine that they will go to heaven. But this eliminates freedom.
You chose to say at the end that God “doesn’t care enough to save the souls”. This does not follow from the facts. People are free to choose salvation. If they choose hell, then they don’t care enough about God and heaven to want to be saved.
That’s the nature of freedom. We shouldn’t imagine that God is pushing people into heaven when they don’t want to go there. Freedom means that people choose. This is not God’s omnipotence, but the chose of individuals.

 

[Oreoracle]

I think you were right in this comment all the way to the last phrase …

Yes, God *can *do anything. In the case of human salvation, in order to preserve the true meaning of freedom – God does not force anyone to be saved. Could He? Yes, definitely. God could create people and determine that they will go to heaven. But this eliminates freedom.
You chose to say at the end that God “doesn’t care enough to save the souls”. This does not follow from the facts. People are free to choose salvation. If they choose hell, then they don’t care enough about God and heaven to want to be saved.
That’s the nature of freedom. We shouldn’t imagine that God is pushing people into heaven when they don’t want to go there. Freedom means that people choose. This is not God’s omnipotence, but the chose of individuals.

Pardon me, then. He doesn’t care to interfere with their freedom in order to save their souls. But it would be quite a stretch for me to believe that someone is choosing to go to Hell when they commit adultery without confessing, or something of that nature. It’s a lot like saying you choose to get fat when you eat fast-food–but no one wants that. One may acknowledge the consequence, but “choosing Hell” is not the wording I’d use.

 

[cranster]

Most people take the path of least resistance. It’s the easiest thing in the world to be damned. All you have to do is follow your own natural instincts and give in to concupiscence, (the inclination to sin).

The road to salvation is tough and few are those who find it. You have to go counter intuitive to your own natural desires, take up your Cross, deny your very self, and follow Jesus to find salvation. You have to be obedient to the will of God to find salvation. Most of us would rather just take the easy way and do what ever we want.

Jesus will lose none of what the Father has given Him.

 

[reggieM]

Pardon me, then. He doesn’t care to interfere with their freedom in order to save their souls. But it would be quite a stretch for me to believe that someone is choosing to go to Hell when they commit adultery without confessing, or something of that nature. It’s a lot like saying you choose to get fat when you eat fast-food–but no one wants that. One may acknowledge the consequence, but “choosing Hell” is not the wording I’d use.

Ok, that’s a good correction. They are not literally choosing hell for the sake of going to hell. They freely choose actions that will bring them to hell. God wants them to go to heaven, and will give abundant help for them, but God will not force Himself on people.

It’s probably true that most people don’t think that there will be any consequences.

 

[Dameedna]

Human beings did not choose to exist.

Human beings did not choose free will.

No calling it a gift, will change what it is and what it means. We …did not choose this human life.

Any creature that would give existance and give free will and then expect a human with all their failings to some-how get it right or punish us, in 80 or so years(less while we were evolving) would be a monster.

The whole “choice” debate is simply a defense mechanism.

We didn’t chose this life. At all We make very very small choices, surrounded by influences that are very very large.

Any God that condems us for this…is a figment of human guilt…not a real God…that loves I suspect the God of Guilt…is not the God of the original christians.

my 2c’s

 

[reggieM]

We …did not choose this human life.

You choose to live it every day. In the materialist-atheist notion, you can end it any time you want. You choose not to end it, thus you freely choose to live this human life as it is.

Any creature that would give existance and give free will and then expect a human with all their failings to some-how get it right or punish us, in 80 or so years(less while we were evolving) would be a monster.

I can imagine a lot of monsters. This one you imagine is not worse than ones I can imagine. Why would you want to conceive of God acting in this way you present? It’s not good to create an evil god in order to then justify reasons for rejecting such a god.

We didn’t chose this life. At all

On the contrary, as above, you do choose it every day. You choose to live it – and you even protect and defend your own life and you don’t want to lose it.

Any God that condems us for this…is a figment of human guilt…not a real God…that loves I suspect the God of Guilt…is not the God of the original christians.

my 2c’s

The good God is the one you should focus on. An evil god cannot be God – therefore, it’s not correct to think that God will condemn anyone for unjust reasons, or that God would make it impossible to attain happiness or goodness.

Guilt is certainly a real factor and motivator in life. But I don’t think we create an evil god in order to deal with guilt. The good God, the God of mercy and forgiveness – that is the best answer to guilt.

I agree that the God of the original Christians is a lot different than what some people consider God to be like today. God is all good and all pure love. If we think of a god that is evil then there is something wriong with how we’re thinking about God.