If God Knows the Future, is There Fate?

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I was thinking about this. If God knows our future, then is there fate? However, fate is not compatible with free will. This made me start thinking God is similar to a movie director. God creates our character before we are born it seems (our soul/personality.) Free will is like ad libbing our part in the movie. Since God is like the director, he knows exactly what will happen in the future.

Or am I just confused? :confused:
 
From New Advent:

*** (Latin fatum, from fari, to tell or predict). This word is almost redundant in the vocabulary of a Catholic as such, for its meaning as the prime cause of events is better expressed by the term Divine Providence, while, as a constant force at work in the physical universe, it is nothing more nor less than natural law. Hence St. Augustine says (City of God I): “If anyone calls the influence or the power of God by the name of Fate, let him keep his opinion, but mend his speech.” Fate, in its popular meaning, is something opposed to chance, in so far as the latter term implies a cause acting according to no fixed laws. The unseen power that rules the destinies of men was personified by the ancient Greeks under the name of Moira, or, more generally, as three sisters Moirai, or Fates, whose names were Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. Sometimes fate is described as having unlimited sway over gods and men, while at other times the gods, especially Zeus, are described as the rulers of human destiny, or as having the power to change the course of fate. With the Moirai the Romans identified their own Parcæ or Fata.

The idea of fate as a power in the world came, as St. Thomas tells us (C.G., III, xciii), from the attempt to find a cause for events which appeared to follow no definite law and to be the result of mere chance. Many, who were not satisfied with the explanation of poets and mythologists, turned their thoughts to the heavenly bodies, which, acting according to definite and unchanging laws themselves, were supposed to impress their influence upon events in the lower world (see ASTROLOGY). St. Thomas, who was no believer in astrology, evidently supposes that, while Providence acts according to fixed laws in the sidereal system, there is no such uniformity in the case of natural phenomena on earth. These latter are therefore often the result of chance, as far as secondary causes are concerned, though not so in their relation to God’s Providence.***

You can also read the Catechism (CCC re: destiny of man)
 
I was thinking about this. If God knows our future, then is there fate? However, fate is not compatible with free will. This made me start thinking God is similar to a movie director. God creates our character before we are born it seems (our soul/personality.) Free will is like ad libbing our part in the movie. Since God is like the director, he knows exactly what will happen in the future.

Or am I just confused? :confused:
You are a little confused. There is no tension between free will and Gods knowledge since we don’t know what is Gods knowledge. You are however correct in saying that Gods knowledge implements fate.
 
I personally don’t like the comparison with movie director that much because it seems that God is directing us constantly and given our free will is not necessary like that. To me God is more like the created of a cartoon comic strip, he creates the characters, creates the environment and creates the entire set up and the rules by which the cartoon will run but the twist is that he gives the cartoon a life of its own. Instead of the cartoon creator having to write an episode for the cartoon everyday he just brings them to life and lets them develop their own story. He knows the future not because he wrote a previous script stating what is happening to each character but because he created each character and has the ability to read and know each character to perfection which gives him the ability to know without failure exactly what each character is going to do. We do have free will and we ate capable of taking our own decisions what happens is that the extent of God’s knowledge of each of us so big (he knows us even better than our own selves) that he inequivocably can know how we are going to react and how are we going to act in the future.
 
I personally don’t like the comparison with movie director that much because it seems that God is directing us constantly and given our free will is not necessary like that. To me God is more like the created of a cartoon comic strip, he creates the characters, creates the environment and creates the entire set up and the rules by which the cartoon will run but the twist is that he gives the cartoon a life of its own. Instead of the cartoon creator having to write an episode for the cartoon everyday he just brings them to life and lets them develop their own story. He knows the future not because he wrote a previous script stating what is happening to each character but because he created each character and has the ability to read and know each character to perfection which gives him the ability to know without failure exactly what each character is going to do. We do have free will and we ate capable of taking our own decisions what happens is that the extent of God’s knowledge of each of us so big (he knows us even better than our own selves) that he inequivocably can know how we are going to react and how are we going to act in the future.
Blessed John Henry Newman said we all have a purpose. We were all made for a reason. Not just dumped into life (though I thought your post was imaginative).

If each person truly discerned their path then all would find their reason for being. Otherwise, ‘reason’, would not exist. That path of life is a path of truth which we can turn away from, or walk along. And when we don’t walk it or we move away, He leads us back, and heals the damage. It is our choice to be open to it and to go back when fallen.

Take absolutes. We have Our Lady. Her path in life was Mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Take the saints, they had roles. Or the Popes. They all have and had a purpose. So if there are paths for a few, there will be paths for all.

The difficulty, is the worldly view of what constitutes a particular, a special, path. Most envision something fantastically outrageous. But the very reason Our Lady and the saints were chosen to be who they were to be was because they were humble, of their humility, and because they pursued life with, as St. Therese said, “holy daring”. Their delight was in the Lord. And this living out in their lives of this delight exalted them, the lowly. Similarly, those who wish to be big in the world, the princes, are brought down - as the Our Lady speaking the Magnificat said - because they follow their owns wills.

The other difficulty, leading on from expectations, is about what is considered grand in Heaven. Consider the Widow’s Mite. What the worldly deems as important and what our Creator thinks is important are not necessarily often the same. Your part in life, and reason for being, might be very small things to you and to the world, but to our Creator, these little things might be of huge importance.

Last, the living of a perfect path is fraught with difficulties, but it is not us who can achieve the impossible. It is only relying on help that we can. So often on our paths, we will take roundabout routes, or say “no” even - as Jonah did, Moses didn’t always trust, and many others had difficulty understanding - to what our Creator has in mind, but He can and does, if we let Him, put us back where He wants us, in our hearts, so we can be redeemed, because we have already “been bought and paid for”.
 
Fate implies that we lack control over our ultimate destiny. As such, fate does not exist.

God is outside of time, to him everything that we perceive chronologically is one continuous and ever-present NOW. He know what we’re going to do because we’ve already done it, and are in the process of doing it, and will do it in the future. He only knows we will do something because, from his view, we are in the process of doing it, and have already done it.

A helpful way I heard of looking at the issue is to think of time, all of time, as a large sphere. God is sitting outside of that sphere, and can see of it at once.
 
Fate implies that we lack control over our ultimate destiny. As such, fate does not exist.

God is outside of time, to him everything that we perceive chronologically is one continuous and ever-present NOW. He know what we’re going to do because we’ve already done it, and are in the process of doing it, and will do it in the future. He only knows we will do something because, from his view, we are in the process of doing it, and have already done it.

A helpful way I heard of looking at the issue is to think of time, all of time, as a large sphere. God is sitting outside of that sphere, and can see of it at once.
Our Creator is outside of time. Sure, So He knows all that is. But He also brought into being, creation. Out of love. The problem is the word ‘fate’. Fate can bring thoughts of something dark and looming. But we do have a fate. But a good and happy one. If we choose well. And this good fate is to live in Heaven forever. And so being, if there is a best choice in small things, there will be best choices in walking certain paths; in fact, always a best path, on earth to walk. If there were no ‘best paths’ then there would be no order in love. This is why discernment is important. It is by discerning that we albeit imperfectly find ourselves walking eventually on the path best suited to us if we weren’t on it already (!) We are guided and the assertion of Our Lord being the True Shephard is, well, true. We can grow in grace thanks to wisdom which is not earthly intellect but a Heavenly light - like a torch being held out before us as we walk. The source of which is not gained by worldly thinking. And if we are to love wisdom, which guides, then there must be a reason why, and a particular Way for us to walk, in the first place.
 
Our Creator is outside of time. Sure, So He knows all that is. But He also brought into being, creation. Out of love. The problem is the word ‘fate’. Fate can bring thoughts of something dark and looming. But we do have a fate. But a good and happy one. If we choose well. And this good fate is to live in Heaven forever. And so being, if there is a best choice in small things, there will be best choices in walking certain paths; in fact, always a best path, on earth to walk. If there were no ‘best paths’ then there would be no order in love. This is why discernment is important. It is by discerning that we albeit imperfectly find ourselves walking eventually on the path best suited to us if we weren’t on it already (!) We are guided and the assertion of Our Lord being the True Shephard is, well, true. We can grow in grace thanks to wisdom which is not earthly intellect but a Heavenly light - like a torch being held out before us as we walk. The source of which is not gained by worldly thinking. And if we are to love wisdom, which guides, then there must be a reason why, and a particular Way for us to walk, in the first place.
I was specifically speaking about the notion of fate as something outside of our control; and end over which we have no say. I agree that there is a fate that God desires for us, but that is very different from God forcing a fate despite our wills.

There is a specific “way” for us to walk which God has clearly outlined. That Way is Jesus Christ. Any step we take off that path is a step away from God’s “fate” for us. Fortunately, He is always holding the torch guiding us back to the path. All we have to do is walk towards the light.
 
I was specifically speaking about the notion of fate as something outside of our control; and end over which we have no say. I agree that there is a fate that God desires for us, but that is very different from God forcing a fate despite our wills.

There is a specific “way” for us to walk which God has clearly outlined. That Way is Jesus Christ. Any step we take off that path is a step away from God’s “fate” for us. Fortunately, He is always holding the torch guiding us back to the path. All we have to do is walk towards the light.
👍🙂
 
I was thinking about this. If God knows our future, then is there fate? However, fate is not compatible with free will. This made me start thinking God is similar to a movie director. God creates our character before we are born it seems (our soul/personality.) Free will is like ad libbing our part in the movie. Since God is like the director, he knows exactly what will happen in the future.

Or am I just confused? :confused:
Let me change your analogy a bit:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.
 
I was thinking about this. If God knows our future, then is there fate? However, fate is not compatible with free will. This made me start thinking God is similar to a movie director. God creates our character before we are born it seems (our soul/personality.) Free will is like ad libbing our part in the movie. Since God is like the director, he knows exactly what will happen in the future.

Or am I just confused? :confused:
God knows our future but, we can petition Him for help and for others. Fate is actually an abstract concept. God is a person. We either serve him as best we can or we serve Him selectively by not agreeing with certain things His Church teaches. We have a choice in all this. We can ask Him for guidance as well.

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
God knows our future but, we can petition Him for help and for others. Fate is actually an abstract concept. God is a person. We either serve him as best we can or we serve Him selectively by not agreeing with certain things His Church teaches. We have a choice in all this. We can ask Him for guidance as well.

Hope this helps,
Ed
Three Persons.
 
“St. Thomas, who was no believer in astrology, evidently supposes that, while Providence acts according to fixed laws in the sidereal system, there is no such uniformity in the case of natural phenomena on earth. These latter are therefore often the result of chance, as far as secondary causes are concerned, though not so in their relation to God’s Providence.” Old Catholic Encyclopedia

Aquinas DID believe that stars and planets affected our emotions. I need to reread Aquinas on fate. He seemed to be saying that there only appeared to be chance, but that there was no chance. The last sentence in the above quote makes no sense. There cannot be true chance along with direction by God, unless we are saying the motions of chance are inconsequential
 
If God knows the future is it possible for the damned to have a deep relationship with God in the present if they are faithful? Does God have multiple relationships with us (past, present, future)?
 
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