If Hell Exists...

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Okay, first and foremost, Hell does exist, just as much as Heaven exists. The OP did say that his view was possibly of a Protestant view of Hell, not a Catholic one, which makes a huge difference. And the Protestant view of Hell is a warped one, stemming from the idea of God not as a loving Father, but more in line with the OT version of God as an often vengeful judge, and if people die not having heard of God or Jesus (let alone having the chance of being baptized), too bad, they’re going to Hell anyway.

Calvin actually believed that when a person was created by God, God already had decided whether a person was going to go to Heaven or Hell, and only people who were to go to Heaven would receive graces from God. Some later Calvinists followed this argument to the logical conclusion, that whatever a person does on Earth doesn’t matter - if predestined for Heaven, they would go to Heaven no matter what they did on Earth, and if predestined for Hell, they would go to Hell no matter what they did on Earth.

The Catholic belief is much different, and has been formed based off of several questions, such as, “What would happen if a baby died before his/her parents could baptize him/her?”, “What would happen if a person lived in a time and place where he/she never has had the opportunity to hear about Jesus and His Church?”, etc., understanding that a good and loving God could never condemn people to Hell for circumstances beyond their control. This is how the popular idea of “Limbo” came to be, which the church has since rejected. Instead, we focus on Extraordinary Forms of baptism (the forms of desire and of fire/sword).

The Extraordinary Form of baptism by desire can be if a person either is (a) preparing for baptism, but dies suddenly before being baptised (in other words, the person was explicitly desiring to be baptized) - if the death is slowly (such as by cancer), an emergency Ordinary Form of Baptism by water can be administered - or (b) never has had the Gospel preached to him/her; misunderstands the Gospel, etc., but would have desired to be baptized had the circumstances been different - and tries to follow the natural law that God has imprinted on all hearts.

The Extraordinary Form of baptism by fire/sword is if a nonbaptized person is martyred while defending the Christian faith, as the willingness to die for a faith is akin to the Profession of Faith one is required to make before being baptized (in the case of infants and other children under the age of reason, parents make this profession on behalf of their children).

As such, we believe that though baptism is necessary for salvation, only God knows the desires and inner workings of the heart, and those who were never baptized with water still could be baptized by their own desire to be with God. Hell is for those angels and humans, baptized or not, who have explicitly rejected God through their actions and/or inactions. The decision at the point of death is permanent, and it is through our own free will that we go to Hell.
 
All of the OP´s statements are based on his convictions, that he knows God. He hasn´t had the beatific vision as yet. I cannot fathom the Holy Trinity. It defies my logic. I accept it, because I believe God. I believe that God´s judgement is perfect justice. Why? Because He said that his judgement was true. Just because we don´t understand it now, doesn´t mean that we won´t on the other side of life. Even the saved will be so sad at how we just didn´t love God enough in this life. Instead of focusing on how just God is. We should all be focusing on how much we don´t love our creater,and what we can do about it. God bless:thumbsup:👍👍
 
I am going to do my best giving a few insights of my own. Certainly not all I say is a complete answer…but I’ll do my best hoping that it helps. My comments are in BOLD in your post below. Theyre in italics as well
ngill09 said:
Disclaimer: This is aimed more at a Protestant version of the Doctrine of Hell. It may not apply very well to Catholic doctrine. Okay, well this is a Catholic forum. Catholics have many problems with all sorts of protestant beliefs. Not that we just say protestants are bad but yeah we disagree strongly at times

Problem 1:

I think most would agree that Hell, whatever it is in particular, is a fate worse than death.
True!

We might also agree that God is responsible for condemning people to Hell. You might object that people send themselves to Hell, or that people “choose” Hell, but that removes Judgment from the picture, and I think that Judgment is pretty central to Christian doctrine. A criminal may choose to commit crimes which result in him being condemned to prison, but the criminal does not choose to be sentenced to prison. The judge, jury, and lawmakers choose that the criminal be sentenced to prison. They are responsible for the justice that is served in sentencing a criminal. Likewise, God is responsible for condemning people to Hell. This is a bit too simplistic. I think a person sends themselves to hell but at the same time God does. Look at the bottom of my post at the end, not embedded in your quote, for the best answer I can give

All who choose not to believe that Christianity is true are condemned to Hell. I’m not talking about people who have never heard of Christianity, I’m talking about people who have heard of the Gospel and didn’t believe it was true. If you disagree with this point, this argument no longer works, but accepting Jesus Christ would no longer be necessary for salvation.I don’t agree with this point at all. Not everyone who hears of the Gospel and rejects it truly understands the Gospel. I think the Gospel when presented in its fullness is compelling and Christ’s truth can shine through but at the same time, the psychology of belief is complex

Problem 2

Therefore, if those who do not believe that Christianity is true are condemned to Hell, Heaven only exists for psychopaths. For anyone who has the capacity for empathy, there are simply two versions of Hell. And yes, if you find enjoyment at the prospect of otherwise innocent non-Christians suffering in Hell, I name you a psychopath.
***I think there are a few answers to this problem. First of all, we see things as God does. If someone so chooses to become the kind of person that is not happy in heaven because they chose to separate themselves from God, then we recognize it is only through their own freedom that they have done this. We also understand the perfection in God’s plan from His perspective and of course we have a profound respect for the dignity of others which involves their freedom. Also, love is completely willed and not emotional (or the emotions are in complete obedience to the spiritual will). Therefore, it will not be as if we have feelings of love and emotion that go against God’s judgment. This is a profound mystery, one that troubles me, but I think we can trust that it is possible that God (who loves our loved ones more than we do) enjoys happiness in heaven, so can we.

I might be going out on a limb here a little, and hopefully I do not say anything that is bad theology. Its mere speculation, so if I sound dumb, I take it back: This is not the whole story about loved ones in hell but I think we have to realize something. Beyond death, our cover is sort of torn off. We see things the way they really are. Now we have many friends now and relationships now that are nice, we like them, and we have fun with the person we are with, but they are not true and deep. Many relationships are based off of natural human emotions, some good we see in the other, the usefulnesss/fun we have with the other. But imagine after death when all of that is taken away. We see things the way God does. Imagine we are friends with someone who truly is worthy of hell because they have become devoid of supernatural life and charity. Imagine someone who’s soul has no love. From the perspective of the beyond i.e. after death, we could never form a relationship with this person. All of the “human” things that make us bond with them on this earth would be gone, or would be meaningless in comparison to the true sight of their soul, which is an enemy of God. It would be like if you found out your best friend murdered a child. Of course this is not good, and we if we are good will not wish our friend harm, but in terms of emotionally coping with say his conviction of a crime and the loss of the friendship it would be a lot easier. Now it may not be perfectly easy given that we are creatures with many conflicting emotions, but imagine if we did not have hankering memories of good times but we had reason perfectly dominate these emotions. I think in that setting, its easier to see how no one truly has friends in hell. We have people we may think are friends but when someone goes to heaven and the other to hell, really no true deep relationship was possible. If that doesn’t make sense, I guess its hard to explain…but my point is, once we go into the other side of life, and we see things as they are, is it even possible to be true friends with someone who is completely devoid of charity?***

I’m really more interested in other comments or objections.
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Okay, as I said above I’d try to offer a short explanation of hell, very brief, that is different from yours.

Its like this: God made us to know, love and serve Him in this life to be happy forever with Him in the next. God gave us the freedom to do this. God loves us and therefore offers us His friendship. When we love God in return, we are friends with God (and in Catholic theological langauge, we share in His supernatural life, or sanctifying grace, i.e. have charity on our souls). When we chose to not love God, we chose a life without Him (note that this is simplifying and summarizing a series of complex moral choices. So for example giving to the poor is part of loving God whereas murdering Jews is part of hating Him).

When we die, we are either God’s friends or not. Only God, who is all knowing, all just, and all holy can truly judge. For those of us who are His friends, we can go to heaven, because this is what we truly want, and would truly enjoy, and because of God’s grace we now truly deserve it as a reward.

For those who have definitvely rejected God, heaven is not what they want (they are God’s enemies), not what they would enjoy (it might even be a worse torture than hell!) and not what they deserve (how could an evil person who has rejected the infinite good God deserve eternal happiness?). So God bars them from heaven forever. God could anniliate them, but God has created humans with a certain dignity, part of which is their immortality. Humans weren’t made to just past the test and then survive anniliation. Humans were made by nature immortal, this is part of what it means to be made in God’s image. Therefore, a human does not “die” and go to everlasting sleep. They go to a state and place of separation from God. This immersion in themselves for eternity is hell.

Hope that helps…Of course I don’t know all the answers, this is a lot of speculation for me
 
Hell has to exist. Without it christianity would not exist. There would be no point in believing in christ if hell didn’t exist (There would be reason to believe, he wouldn’t have had to die on the cross) . You would get a ‘‘Free pass’’. Now you say that ‘‘God sends them to Hell.’’ . That is false, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Example: You commit a mortal sin=Hell (That is Catholic doctrine at least, I don’t know if someone can be sent to hell after being ‘‘Saved’’ in the protestant religion)

Now this is an example of someone sending themselves to hell because they are REJECTING HEAVEN!
 
mosinowner said:
Hell has to exist. Without it christianity would not exist. There would be no point in believing in christ if hell didn’t exist (There would be reason to believe, he wouldn’t have had to die on the cross) . You would get a ‘‘Free pass’’. Now you say that ‘‘God sends them to Hell.’’ . That is false, for every action there is an **equal and opposite reaction. **

Example: You commit a mortal sin=Hell (That is Catholic doctrine at least, I don’t know if someone can be sent to hell after being ‘‘Saved’’ in the protestant religion)

Now this is an example of someone sending themselves to hell because they are REJECTING HEAVEN!
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The mention of mortal sin inspired me to try to look up a list of mortal sins, and I found one that lists the following criteria for determining if something is a mortal sin:
  1. It must be a SERIOUS MATTER [or believed to be a Serious Matter], and only potentially serious matters, by the most conservative standard that I could find, are listed on this Check-Off.
**2) Before the Sin, a person must have been mindful of the serious wrong, having reflected on the gravity of the situation, with SUFFICIENT REFLECTION, beforehand. **
  1. A person must have freely chosen to commit the Sin, with the full consent of the FREE WILL, in spite of possible coercion.
In particular, the criteria of sufficient reflection caught my eye. It would seem that this would exempt most people from many mortal sins. After all, the people I’m talking about (non-believers) are not “mindful of the serious wrong” of not worshiping God or obeying certain of his commandments (attend mass on sundays, premarital sex, etc.)
 
ngill09 said:
Again, in response to you and others, these points only hold for versions of Hell in which otherwise good people are condemned to Hell simply for not believing that Christianity is true. Of course, if people can go to Heaven simply by being good without believing in Christianity, this poses other doctrinal problems, I think.
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I dont think it would be the direct disbelief as much as it would be the effects of disbelief, ex: abortion, adultery, fornication, pornography, etc etc. Otherwise “good people” do these things fairly commonly in our society that would warrant Hell if unrepentant. These things might.not cause direct harm, but they do in fact cause much harm, which would be made aware to them at the time of their judgement. Everything will be made clear, even the oppurtunities to do right in these situations, then they will be sent to where they chose to go by the way they lived their life.

A criminal does not sentence himself to prison in a literal sense, but by.choosing that life and knowing the consequences of it and chooses it anywah, he knows he will end up in prison.
 
ngill09 said:
. . . In particular, the criteria of sufficient reflection caught my eye. It would seem that this would exempt most people from many mortal sins. After all, the people I’m talking about (non-believers) are not “mindful of the serious wrong” of not worshiping God or obeying certain of his commandments (attend mass on sundays, premarital sex, etc.)
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Not wishing to psyche you out, but wanting to give you a heads up, you may not qualify to be a member of this group. You are aware of, at least in your understanding, the possibility of God. If you don’t pursue this, well I don’t know: you are seriously going to regret it.
 
Ngill,

Let me see if I read you right. You want all the hitler guys to go to heaven so you and I can play paddy cake with them forever. Wouldn’t that be fun. Good luck with that. If that is the case, you can do that if you like, but I think I’ll go to hell where the neighborhood is a lot nicer.​

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
Again, in response to you and others, these points only hold for versions of Hell in which otherwise good people are condemned to Hell simply for not believing that Christianity is true.
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The assertion begs the question. All you are asking is to be allowed to get on with being “good” without Christianity before you have even bothered to do your best to find out what good really means.

Which also means that you haven’t bothered to find out whether or not Christianity is actually true yourself. Because the first thing Christianity will reveal to you is that nobody can be good, not on your own moral efforts.
Of course, if people can go to Heaven simply by being good without believing in Christianity, this poses other doctrinal problems, I think.
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Nobody can get into heaven based on their own moral goodness alone. Nobody can earn heaven. So your argument is a strawman.
 
Threads like this are what happens when people erroneously create their own definitions and build strawman arguments based on those false definitions. Terms are unclear, premises unsound and invalid, and conclusions are fallacious and don’t follow from the facts.
 
To the OP,

You need to refine your terms. What is goodness? What is evil?

Your hypothetical about sitting before the throne of God and viewing him as a tyrant is exactly how people in hell view him. If you are in heaven God will show you the gravity of the sins of those in hell and their unrepentence. It’s a bit like in this world when a child rapist gets beat up in prison, the thought goes through your head, “serves the perve right.” The same will hold true for those in hell, except to infinite proportions.

As to non-Christians going to hell, this is simply not what the Church teaches. It says that Christ is the only mediator and that His Church is the principle means by which people enter heaven. A saints suffering may be a non Christians ticket to heaven. Baptism by desire does exist for those who seek truth and abide by the natural law. So these ‘good’ people you talk about are not necessarily condemned to hell for non-belief, but only if they know Christianity’s precepts and reject them or if they do not abide by the natural law.

Finally, another poster mentioned we cannot go to heaven of our own accord, which is true. However, you don’t necessarily have to be in the Church outwardly to receive justifying grace. The Church is simply the surest way to get that grace, and the best way.
 
Hell is not a punishment from God. It is the destination of the soul unsuitable for God’s eternity. The mind of man communes with God through the Trinity. If man’s mind submits to this in great humility, after the flesh dies the death, the mind gets to exist in eternal bliss. When that connection is cut, the now truly alone mind is left defenseless against the evil that was always knocking on the door.
 
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