"If possible, let this cup pass from me"

[PJM]

I am not denying the accentuation of Jesus’ humanity, nor that it was a lesson in humility.
I ask, on a literal level, why would He think God may take the Cup away, when He foretold it?
That is why I think it is simply a lesson, but not to say that Jesus wished God to change His plan that the whole Trinity accepted and decreeted.

He didn’t which is why he immediately SAID “Thy will be done!”

 

[TK421]

Hello,
My difficulty with Matthew 26:39 is that Jesus, knowing that He would die for us as He had announced several times, still asks to the Father “If possible, let this cup pass from me”.

I am well aware of the fact that Jesus was experiencing fear, but nevertheless, He repeated He came to give His life.

How do you see this? Thank you

“The martyrs died with joy. The King of Martyrs with sorrow.”

There was fear, yes, but the prime agony of the garden was sorrow because he was going to be rejected by the people he loved. The garden is a sorrowful mystery. Jesus’ prayer in the garden takes place immediately after the institution of the Eucharist. Satan had entered Judas at that meal, and Judas’ heart is already set, which is particularly dreadful since, unlike Peter, it is definitively set.

 

[MarcoPG]

He didn’t which is why he immediately SAID “Thy will be done!”

He didn’t what? Think God may take the Cup away from Him? He clearly did, He wouldn’t have to add anything if He didn’t. I think you don’t get me. I am sorry if I cannot make it clearer.

 

[MarcoPG]

…] which is particularly dreadful since, unlike Peter, it is definitively set.

That is the point.

Definitively set >> If possible, may this pass from me. Can something definitively set by God the Father and accepted by the Son change? I guess not. This is why I think it is all about His human nature. Otherwise The Son might be seen as not wanting His sacrifice.

 

[PJM]

He didn’t what? Think God may take the Cup away from Him? He clearly did, He wouldn’t have to add anything if He didn’t. I think you don’t get me. I am sorry if I cannot make it clearer.

NO

He REALLY didn’t expect to NOT have to go trough with his Passion. His plea was of SORROW, NOT regret:thumbsup:

 

[MarcoPG]

NO

He REALLY didn’t expect to NOT have to go trough with his Passion. His plea was of SORROW, NOT regret:thumbsup:

You said yourself it is a plea - so, by the way, your “NO” is odd.
You see you misunderstood me, and that we say the same thing? I never said it was out of regret. But the part of the verse I quoted doesn’t seem to express sorrow; Jesus did elsewhere.
Or how do you see that “let this cup pass from me” implies sorrow?
That is what my question aims for: why would He plead not to drink the cup, if He accepted and foretold His sacrifice? We agree, it is because of Jesus’ human nature, but I remain with my question then, on what such plea implies in the understanding on how divine and Human wills interacted. Maybe I should research on the 2 wills, and how pleading what Jesus did isn’t even for a second going His way and not the Father’s.

What makes it even more difficult, is that in John 12, Jesus says: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour? But for this cause came I unto this hour.

 

[goout]

You said yourself it is a plea - so, by the way, your “NO” is odd.
You see you misunderstood me, and that we say the same thing? I never said it was out of regret. But the part of the verse I quoted doesn’t seem to express sorrow; Jesus did elsewhere.
Or how do you see that “let this cup pass from me” implies sorrow?
That is what my question aims for: why would He plead not to drink the cup, if He accepted and foretold His sacrifice? We agree, it is because of Jesus’ human nature, but I remain with my question then, on what such plea implies in the understanding on how divine and Human wills interacted. Maybe I should research on the 2 wills, and how pleading what Jesus did isn’t even for a second going His way and not the Father’s.

What makes it even more difficult, is that in John 12, Jesus says: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour? But for this cause came I unto this hour.

Your question goes to literal cause and effect.

We can also see the words of Jesus as a lament. Perhaps his lament is the deepest expression of human misery, rather than literally questioning the Father for results.
His words have to be taken in context, not as begging an answer in a literalist way.

 

[MarcoPG]

Your question goes to literal cause and effect.

We can also see the words of Jesus as a lament. Perhaps his lament is the deepest expression of human misery, rather than literally questioning the Father for results.
His words have to be taken in context, not as begging an answer in a literalist way.

Well, He says “If possible”, He isn’t demanding anythingnor asking for an answer - that HE gets anyway in His consolation by the angel. We agree that it is because of His suffering.

In context, He still asks if it is possible that the cup passes from Him. Even if He adds not My will but Yours be done, it still shows that at least Jesus’ human will may have desired something else than the Father did. Is this a possibility, because of the great pain? I would never go so far to think that he sinnd even venially, but could it be that his humanity had to come back into the line with his divinity, or is it impossible? All I am asking is a way to explain this apparent contrast, knowing that He knew what would happen anyway.
I think I am not wrong thinking that Jesus always did the will of the Father, and same for His intentions, but might He have wondered something in His human will that was different than His divince will? Anyway

 

[goout]

Well, He says “If possible”, He isn’t demanding anythingnor asking for an answer - that HE gets anyway in His consolation by the angel. We agree that it is because of His suffering.

In context, He still asks if it is possible that the cup passes from Him. Even if He adds not My will but Yours be done, it still shows that at least Jesus’ human will may have desired something else than the Father did. Is this a possibility, because of the great pain? I would never go so far to think that he sinnd even venially, but could it be that his humanity had to come back into the line with his divinity, or is it impossible? All I am asking is a way to explain this apparent contrast, knowing that He knew what would happen anyway.
I think I am not wrong thinking that Jesus always did the will of the Father, and same for His intentions, but might He have wondered something in His human will that was different than His divince will? Anyway

Consider that Christ came into the world bearing the Gospel for us, not the crucifixion.
The Gospel is for the kingdom of God, which is a kingdom of peace and reconciliation for all people. In “drinking the cup” Christ is embracing every low and mean thing that humanity makes necessary in opposition to the Gospel. He is fully human. His lament is for the dregs of human depravity that refuses to reconcile with God.

We have an opportunity to say yes all along, through the miracles, the healings, the Good News. We said no, and now death is going to have it’s hour.

Isn’t Christ asking for the conversion of his people before death is the required price? His lament is for us, not for himself to evade suffering.

 

[MarcoPG]

Consider that Christ came into the world bearing the Gospel for us, not the crucifixion.
The Gospel is for the kingdom of God, which is a kingdom of peace and reconciliation for all people. In “drinking the cup” Christ is embracing every low and mean thing that humanity makes necessary in opposition to the Gospel. He is fully human. His lament is for the dregs of human depravity that refuses to reconcile with God.

We have an opportunity to say yes all along, through the miracles, the healings, the Good News. We said no, and now death is going to have it’s hour.

Isn’t Christ asking for the conversion of his people before death is the required price? His lament is for us, not for himself to evade suffering.

The new Covenant, therefore the Cross, is part of the Gospel. There is no good news without His death for us.

“His lament is for the dregs of human depravity that refuses to reconcile with God.”

How does this relate to the verse I cite? And how do you interpret his lament to be for us and not for Him, as He says let the cup pass from me? Even granted that we are the Body of Christ beforehand, it still doesn’t make sense. Drinking the cup or not wouldn’t change anything for those who don’t want of the Gospel.

 

[goout]

The new Covenant, therefore the Cross, is part of the Gospel. There is no good news without His death for us.

“His lament is for the dregs of human depravity that refuses to reconcile with God.”

How does this relate to the verse I cite?

I see it as a lament, that’s how I relate to the verse.

We have a slight difference in theology there. The sacrifice on Calvary redeems us, but it is we who make his death the price of redemption.
Death is not the offer of the New Covenant. Life is.
John the Baptist says “repent…” or change your way of thinking and living. Be changed. Christ spells out the kingdom as an offer of salvation as he ministers and heals and proclaims the kingdom.
The New Covenant is offered, and it is rejected and so must be written in his blood, because Christ will go to any depth to redeem us. It is God’s will to save us at any price.

 

[rcwitness]

Isn’t Christ asking for the conversion of his people before death is the required price? His lament is for us, not for himself to evade suffering.

This is a possibility! It’s hard to imagine how this would happen! The conversion of the high priestly Sanhedrin? Would that overcome sins power? Would Jesus be allowed to Rule in His Kingdom on earth?

My head spins thinking about it… but Jesus knew this was not what was to happen. He was squirming like a worm on a hook! We were putting Him there, but He knew that more than we did ourselves!

 

[MarcoPG]

…]
The New Covenant is offered, and it is rejected and so must be written in his blood, because Christ will go to any depth to redeem us. It is God’s will to save us at any price.

It is a little off-topic, but I have to say this: Christ didn’t die because the New Covenant was rejected. The offering of the New Covenant is Christ. As you said, His life. The new Covenant IS His Blood. So as soon as it is offered, its acceptance or rejection doesn’t change the fact that His death (or giving of His life, ou simpy said it vice-versa but it is the same) was the Testament.

 

[Wesrock]

studylight.org/commentary/matthew/26-39.html

I found this commentary here, which sheds some light on the meaning of the “if possible”.

“…the removal of the cup from Christ was possible in itself, but not as things were circumstanced, and as matters then stood; and therefore it is hypothetically put, “if it be possible”, as it was not; and that by reason of the decrees and purposes of God, which had fixed it, and are immutable; and on account of the covenant of grace, of which this was a considerable branch and article, and in which Christ had agreed unto it, and is unalterable; and also on the score of the prophecies of the Old Testament…”

Then, the commentary goes on to say : “Besides, Christ had foretold it himself once and again, and therefore consistent with the truth of his own predictions, it could not be dispensed with.”

So I am left with my question: knowing all this, why petition the Father? I don’t see another reason than for the reader to get a glimpse of the violence of His agony.

Because he was scared of what was to come.

 

[MarcoPG]

Because he was scared of what was to come.

This is the only issue or solution I see.

I repost here a thought on the previous page, before it gets lost.

…] I remain with my question then, on what such plea implies in the understanding on how divine and Human wills interacted. Maybe I should research on the 2 wills, and how pleading what Jesus did isn’t even for a second going His way and not the Father’s.

…] I would never go so far to think that he sinned even venially, but could it be that his humanity had to come back into the line with his divinity, or is it impossible? All I am asking is a way to explain this apparent contrast, knowing that He knew what would happen anyway.

So,** by asking God to make the Cup pass, did Jesus want something else than the Father, even out of fear**? Is this problematic for the fact that Jesus always obeyed. I don’t think so, but it seems from the text He could want something different than the Father. How does the Church or Father or scholar see this?

 

[Wesrock]

Praying for things to go differently is not in itself an act of disobedience to God’s will. The human side of Jesus was anxious and wished to consult with the Father and pray on the divine will to steady his anxiety.

 

[MarcoPG]

Praying for things to go differently is not in itself an act of disobedience to God’s will. The human side of Jesus was anxious and wished to consult with the Father and pray on the divine will to steady his anxiety.

I agree it isn’t disobedience, since He didn’t disobey. But as a matter of fact, He knew how things would go. You see why I and some others may be confused.Jesus knows the future, still He asks about something which is to be fulfilled.

 

[PJM]

You said yourself it is a plea - so, by the way, your “NO” is odd.
You see you misunderstood me, and that we say the same thing? I never said it was out of regret. But the part of the verse I quoted doesn’t seem to express sorrow; Jesus did elsewhere.
Or how do you see that “let this cup pass from me” implies sorrow?
That is what my question aims for: why would He plead not to drink the cup, if He accepted and foretold His sacrifice? We agree, it is because of Jesus’ human nature, but I remain with my question then, on what such plea implies in the understanding on how divine and Human wills interacted. Maybe I should research on the 2 wills, and how pleading what Jesus did isn’t even for a second going His way and not the Father’s.

What makes it even more difficult, is that in John 12, Jesus says: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour? But for this cause came I unto this hour.

Thank you, but I have nothing more that I can share here:shrug:

GBY

 

[hu324b]

St Faustina in her private revelations claimed that Jesus was talking about lukewarm souls

These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: ‘Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.’ For them, the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.”

 

[MarcoPG]

St Faustina in her private revelations claimed that Jesus was talking about lukewarm souls

These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: ‘Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.’ For them, the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.”

I simply can’t understand that since these souls’ salvation is Jesus’ mercy, the Cup should pass from Him.