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Rutherford2
Guest
We know sufferings brings us closer to God but what about happiness? Do you think God should use happiness to lead us closer to him instead of giving us sufferings?
If suffering brings us closer to God then what about happiness?
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Lee1
Guest
St Francis taught that we should be happy when we suffer since God had given us that suffering to help us to grow spiritually. He therefore believed in both, and that both were useful in drawing nearer to our goal. After all if you lift weights it’s hard work but you can be happy doing it and developing your muscle.
Pretty sure that St Benedict thought the same way.
Personally happiness is conditional, but the conditions are subjective. If I believe I am in the material world temporarily on a mission to develop spiritually then I can be content that all I will encounter is of spiritual value and for my eternal future happiness in heaven. That’s a happy thought to me.
Pretty sure that St Benedict thought the same way.
Personally happiness is conditional, but the conditions are subjective. If I believe I am in the material world temporarily on a mission to develop spiritually then I can be content that all I will encounter is of spiritual value and for my eternal future happiness in heaven. That’s a happy thought to me.
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Vico
Guest
Suffering is part of our imitation of Christ, not something to be eliminated. Happiness is a state that we are blessed with as a result of doing the will of God and is not contrary to suffering.
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Francis
Guest
Jesus wants to give us eternal happiness, not temporal happiness ,there is always great joy and interior happiness when, we receive the holy Eucharist during Mass.
read Nehemiah 9 when they where happy they forgot god and sinned ,but when they where suffering they prayed well
Nehemiah 9:26 “Nevertheless they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their backs and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. 27 Therefore you gave them into the hands of their enemies, who made them suffer. Then in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hands of their enemies. 28 But after they had rest, they again did evil before you, and you abandoned them to the hands of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them; yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you rescued them according to your mercies. 29 And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your ordinances, by the observance of which a person shall live. They turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. 30 Many years you were patient with them, and warned them by your spirit through your prophets; yet they would not listen. Therefore you handed them over to the peoples of the lands. 31 Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.
read Nehemiah 9 when they where happy they forgot god and sinned ,but when they where suffering they prayed well
Nehemiah 9:26 “Nevertheless they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their backs and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. 27 Therefore you gave them into the hands of their enemies, who made them suffer. Then in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hands of their enemies. 28 But after they had rest, they again did evil before you, and you abandoned them to the hands of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them; yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you rescued them according to your mercies. 29 And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your ordinances, by the observance of which a person shall live. They turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. 30 Many years you were patient with them, and warned them by your spirit through your prophets; yet they would not listen. Therefore you handed them over to the peoples of the lands. 31 Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.
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goout
Guest
Yes of course happiness should also lead us to God.
Generally speaking: passions should be oriented towards God. To the degree they are harnessed in this way, or directed this way, they contribute to our beatitude.
To the degree we idolize them, they lead us to misery.
For example, I am attached to fear and anger and a couple other things. When they pop up, as they always will, I grab on to them and wallow in them. This is not a recipe for Godliness.
“Fill every valley, bring all mountains low…make a highway for our God”. In other words, do not get too attached to the ups and downs.
Generally speaking: passions should be oriented towards God. To the degree they are harnessed in this way, or directed this way, they contribute to our beatitude.
To the degree we idolize them, they lead us to misery.
For example, I am attached to fear and anger and a couple other things. When they pop up, as they always will, I grab on to them and wallow in them. This is not a recipe for Godliness.
“Fill every valley, bring all mountains low…make a highway for our God”. In other words, do not get too attached to the ups and downs.
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ZMystiCat
Guest
I’m not sure “should” is the right word. We really shouldn’t discuss what God “should” do. He always knows better.
I think it would be better to ask, “Does God use happiness?” I would say yes. There can be joy, or happiness, found in suffering, but beyond that, I don’t think God is opposed to giving us some earthly comforts as a way of aiding us in properly understanding our reliance on Him. Job is a pretty good example of someone who was able to properly, though imperfectly, understand his place before God in both his times of wealth and poverty. We should not be attached to such comforts so that we wouldn’t give them up if called or curse God if lost.
I know in my life, a mixture of both has helped a lot in understanding where my faults lie.
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guanophore
Guest
Suffering does not necessarily bring anyone closer to God. In fact, many rail against God because they suffer, and have more animosity.
When we join our sufferings with Christ on the Cross they can bring us closer to God, but this has to do with our attitude, not the suffering itself. God did not create mankind for suffering. It was not so in the Garden of Eden.
God does not “give” us sufferings. Suffering is what occurs when great love encounters evil. Suffering is the consequence of sin, both original and personal.
God can, and does, use anything and everything to draw us closer to Himself. His goal for us is to bring us into eternal happiness with Him and free us permanently from our sufferings.
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semper_catholicus
Guest
There is joy and happiness to be found in suffering.
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fhansen
Guest
Actually the pursuit of happiness is what draws us to God, because there’s nothing in creation that can truly satisfy us. It all lets us down in the end.
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Limoncello4021
Guest
I’m reminded of Dorothy Day, who converted to Catholicism because the birth of her child gave her so much joy and, as an atheist at the time, she had no one to thank. Sure, joy and happiness is a powerful thing to bring us to God!
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TK421
Guest
Suffering and happiness can and usually do co-exist.
Happiness moves a soul towards thanksgiving, while suffering moves it towards reliance on God and obedience. Suffering is also part of the dignity of man that not even the angels experience. We participate in a portion of the Passion when we suffer for God.
Happiness moves a soul towards thanksgiving, while suffering moves it towards reliance on God and obedience. Suffering is also part of the dignity of man that not even the angels experience. We participate in a portion of the Passion when we suffer for God.
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STT
Guest
They, suffering and pleasure, are wings of a bird, life.
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o_mlly
Guest
Then Job answered the LORD and said:
"I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be hindered.
I have dealt with great things that I do not understand;
Things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know.
I had heard of You by word of mouth,
But now my eye has seen You.
Therefore I disown what I have said,
And repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:1-6).
In these beautiful verses, Job sublates his prior astonished indignation at an unjust God and confesses his enlightened surrender to an unfathomable God. In a free act, albeit conditioned by intense physical suffering and the resulting mental anguish, Job converts his attitude from being God’s victim to beneficiary.
I think Job’s desolation, his deep, soul- wrenching suffering, sprang from the culturally prevalent but erroneous premise that one’s physical suffering verified one’s alienation from God. As I read the text, I imagine Job’s eyes opening wide and the wrinkle of a smile softening his taut, pained face as the reality behind his suffering finally comes to him. After the theophany, Job is filled with God’s grace and the desolation that surged from Job’s false perception of God’s disaffection departs. Job now sees himself suffering with God; his prior view imagined his suffering as coming from God.
Job’s new attitude allows grace to accompany suffering; his former attitude made suffering and grace mutually exclusive. Job’s renewed affection with God stunningly reverses Job’s disposition toward his suffering from the evidence of his alienation to the instrument of his atonement, “at-one-ment” with God.
In my interpretation, Job comes to see suffering as God’s instrument of intimacy; not of punishment. His prior experience of God expressed in verse five, “I had heard of You by word of mouth,” is indirect and wanting. In the time of his material prosperity, Job “heard” about God and responded liturgically using the proven formulas of his cult to maintain God’s goodwill. In a simplistic quid pro quo relationship, Job gives to God what is His—sacrifice—and, in return, God gives to Job—prosperity. But God so loves Job that He wishes to reveal Himself in a deeper, profounder way. To achieve this intimacy, God must first penetrate Job and strip away all his distractions, thereby capturing his complete attention. The bounty of the land impedes Job; prosperity and prolificacy inflict on Job a spiritual myopia, so God gracefully removes these obstacles to intimacy. What Job first misinterprets as deprivation, he construes after the theophany as blessing, because intimacy with God requires detachment and an opening of oneself. Now a truly disinterested Job testifies of experiencing the intimacy of directly relating to God and he confesses so in verse five, “But now my eye has seen You.”
"I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be hindered.
I have dealt with great things that I do not understand;
Things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know.
I had heard of You by word of mouth,
But now my eye has seen You.
Therefore I disown what I have said,
And repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:1-6).
In these beautiful verses, Job sublates his prior astonished indignation at an unjust God and confesses his enlightened surrender to an unfathomable God. In a free act, albeit conditioned by intense physical suffering and the resulting mental anguish, Job converts his attitude from being God’s victim to beneficiary.
I think Job’s desolation, his deep, soul- wrenching suffering, sprang from the culturally prevalent but erroneous premise that one’s physical suffering verified one’s alienation from God. As I read the text, I imagine Job’s eyes opening wide and the wrinkle of a smile softening his taut, pained face as the reality behind his suffering finally comes to him. After the theophany, Job is filled with God’s grace and the desolation that surged from Job’s false perception of God’s disaffection departs. Job now sees himself suffering with God; his prior view imagined his suffering as coming from God.
Job’s new attitude allows grace to accompany suffering; his former attitude made suffering and grace mutually exclusive. Job’s renewed affection with God stunningly reverses Job’s disposition toward his suffering from the evidence of his alienation to the instrument of his atonement, “at-one-ment” with God.
In my interpretation, Job comes to see suffering as God’s instrument of intimacy; not of punishment. His prior experience of God expressed in verse five, “I had heard of You by word of mouth,” is indirect and wanting. In the time of his material prosperity, Job “heard” about God and responded liturgically using the proven formulas of his cult to maintain God’s goodwill. In a simplistic quid pro quo relationship, Job gives to God what is His—sacrifice—and, in return, God gives to Job—prosperity. But God so loves Job that He wishes to reveal Himself in a deeper, profounder way. To achieve this intimacy, God must first penetrate Job and strip away all his distractions, thereby capturing his complete attention. The bounty of the land impedes Job; prosperity and prolificacy inflict on Job a spiritual myopia, so God gracefully removes these obstacles to intimacy. What Job first misinterprets as deprivation, he construes after the theophany as blessing, because intimacy with God requires detachment and an opening of oneself. Now a truly disinterested Job testifies of experiencing the intimacy of directly relating to God and he confesses so in verse five, “But now my eye has seen You.”
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
I guess it depends on your definition of “happiness”.
I’ve seen people living sinful lives, having lots of fun, by all accounts happy. But then dig a little deeper, and there are broken relationships and broken hearts they left in their wake. So they were happy at the expense of others
I’ve seen people living sinful lives, having lots of fun, by all accounts happy. But then dig a little deeper, and there are broken relationships and broken hearts they left in their wake. So they were happy at the expense of others
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Vico
Guest
You mean happy without repentance and absolution? Happy has various definitions (Oxford):Vico:
What about people who do terrible things and are happy?
The one I am using is true happiness: the inner joy and peace that comes with being right with God, and in heaven.
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Vico
Guest
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IWantGod
Guest
Happiness can make us forget God if it is not centred in God. We tend to be practical creatures.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
There is no true happiness in this life, only in the Beatific Vision can we achieve such a state. There are happy moments that is all.
‘Is there anyone who has everything as he wishes? No—neither I, nor you, nor any man on earth. There is no one in the world, be he Pope or king, who does not suffer trial and anguish.’ - The Imitation of Christ
‘Is there anyone who has everything as he wishes? No—neither I, nor you, nor any man on earth. There is no one in the world, be he Pope or king, who does not suffer trial and anguish.’ - The Imitation of Christ
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joseie
Guest
Who said suffering brings us closer to God? Atheists don’t suffer?It takes them closer to God?
The fact is that neither suffering nor happiness brings one closer to God.What actually happens is that when believers are suffering, they naturally turn to God for help and spent more time for praying etc, but the main purpose is to get favours.When they are happy(for example -got the favours prayed for) either they may not care to express thanks or may just say thanks spending only a fraction of the time taken for praying to get the favours.It is meaningless to consider that in the first instance one became closer to God and in the second instance went away from God and so suffering is more desirable etc.Both are capable of bringing persons closer or away from God.
The fact is that neither suffering nor happiness brings one closer to God.What actually happens is that when believers are suffering, they naturally turn to God for help and spent more time for praying etc, but the main purpose is to get favours.When they are happy(for example -got the favours prayed for) either they may not care to express thanks or may just say thanks spending only a fraction of the time taken for praying to get the favours.It is meaningless to consider that in the first instance one became closer to God and in the second instance went away from God and so suffering is more desirable etc.Both are capable of bringing persons closer or away from God.
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Thom18
Guest
Both can bring us closer to God (but only if we allow it). Suffering because we become united with Jesus in His Passion, and happiness because it is precisely what Jesus suffered for.
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