If the Atonement was a Ransom or Christus Victor, how is the Divine Liturgy thought of in sacrificial terms?

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Something I would like to quickly point out to those who may not be aware, before I go to work, is that none of the atonement theories are declared doctrine in the Latin Church, even as they bear tremendous influence on spirituality and theology.
Indeed. And the Orthodox often exaggerate the extent to which Jesus was seen as a passive victim in late medieval western Christianity. Piers Plowman, Passus 18 (B-Text), is one of the greatest statements of Christus Victor/ransom atonement theology I know:
Eft the light bad unlouke, and Lucifer answerde,

" Quis est iste ?

What lord artow?’ quod Lucifer. The light soone seide,

Rex glorie,

The lord of myght and of mayn and alle manere vertues–

Dominus virtutum.

Dukes of this dymme place, anoon undo thise yates,

That Crist may come in, the Kynges sone of Hevene!’

And with that breeth helle brak, with Belialles barres–

For any wye or warde, wide open the yates.

Patriarkes and prophetes, populus in tenebris,

Songen Seint Johanes song, " Ecce Agnus Dei.’

Lucifer loke ne myghte, so light hym ablente.

And tho that Oure Lord lovede, into his light he laughte,

And seide to Sathan, "Lo! here my soule to amendes

For alle synfulle soules, to save tho that ben worthi.

Myne thei ben and of me–I may the bet hem cleyme.

Although reson recorde, and right of myselve,

That if thei ete the appul, alle sholde deye,

I bihighte hem noght here helle for evere.

For the dede that thei dide, thi deceite it made;

With gile thow hem gete, ageyn alle reson.

For in my paleis, Paradis, in persone of an addre,

Falsliche thow fettest there thyng that I lovede.

"Thus ylik a lusard with a lady visage,

Thefliche thow me robbedest; the Olde Lawe graunteth

That gilours be bigiled–and that is good reson:

Dentem pro dente et oculum pro oculo.Page 231

Ergo soule shal soule quyte and synne to synne wende,

And al that man hath mysdo, I, man, wole amende it.

Membre for membre [was amendes by the Olde Lawe],

And lif for lif also–and by that lawe I clayme

Adam and al his issue at my wille herafter.

And that deeth in hem fordide, my deeth shal releve,

And bothe quyke and quyte that queynt was thorugh synne;

And that grace gile destruye, good feith it asketh.
Edwin
 
Dear brother Don,

I think it is fair to ask why, if the language of sacrifice is ubiquitous in the Eastern DL, and “lex orandi, lex credendi,” why does one encounter so much Eastern (not from EC really, but from EO) opposition and aversion to the Latin Church’s concept of sacrifice, both in theology and spirituality.

I should note, of course, that the Oriental Tradition has no problem with the Latin concept, both in theology and spirituality, but actually shares it.

Blessings,
Marduk
We have no problem with the idea of sacrifice itself. Sacrifice is found throughout the Holy Scriptures with the offerings of Cain and Abel, Abraham’s attempted sacrifice of Isaac, the sacrifices for sin given by Moses to Israel, etc. It also features prominently in the works of all the fathers of the Church.

We are critical however of the Anselmian interpretation of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross as given in his work “Cur Deus Homo”. Anselm attempts to explain why the salvation of the world could only be accomplished by one that is both God and man, and he explains this through God’s justice. God, who cannot change, is just, and his justice demands righteousness from his creation. When man fell into sin, he merited the condemnation of God which his justice demanded. Since God’s justice is in his nature, and he cannot change, he cannot simply forgive us without a propitiation for our sin being offered. This propitiation could not be offered by an ordinary man for all men, since his sacrifice would only avail for himself. God is also infinite, and therefore his justice is infinite, and requires an infinite sacrifice. Since man is finite he could not provide an infinite sacrifice, and so is unable even to offer propitiation for himself. Further, God’s justice demands that he could not sacrifice someone else for man such as angel, since that being was not guilty, and his condemnation on our behalf would be unjust. Our salvation therefore required that the sacrifice be offered by man, since he was the one guilty of sin, and by God, since only he could offer an infinite sacrifice. Only Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became man, could fulfill these requirements, and therefore only he could be our savior.

The Anselmian theory is admirable in that it combines incarnational and soteriological theology, but we have some criticisms of it. One, it seems to make the essential problem of our salvation God’s justice, not our sin. God loves us and desires to forgive us, but his justice constrains him to also be wrathful toward us and punish us. It’s almost as though God is schizophrenic (of a split mind) and unable to reconcile his conflicting nature except through the incarnation. Two, it understands the fall of mankind exclusively in legal terms of a breach of the law and the punishment that justice demands. While it can be understood in those terms, it’s a reduction of the witness of scripture and tradition to only one aspect. We would emphasize that sin is a breach in our relationship with God which divorces us from the source of goodness and life, and allows us to be dominated by our passions and the Devil until we eventually die. The problem is the corruption of our nature which requires healing which only God can provide. Three, it’s a philosophical approach based on the characteristics of God and his immutability, not the witness of Holy Scripture or the catholic tradition. We prefer to follow the reasoning of St. Athanasius in his work “On the Incarnation”, where he argues that God became man so that he could assume our nature and heal it, uniting it to God, so that we would become like him. He writes:

“The Word perceived that corruption could not be got rid of otherwise than through death; yet He Himself, as the Word, being immortal and the Father’s Son, was such as could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection.”

spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_2

Again, it isn’t so much that we say that there is no truth to Anselm’s approach, only that it focuses too narrowly on one aspect of our salvation.

It should also be pointed out, however, that Anselm’s theory is by no means the only way in which the Catholic Church understands salvation. This is more true of Lutheran and Reformed theology than Catholic theology, which maintains the broader patristic tradition. This is something I had to point out to a member of my parish who was writing a paper on this subject that talked about the Anselmian theory as the “western” approach without any distinction between Catholic and Protestant traditions. Eastern Orthodox apologists are sometimes guilty of not making this distinction.
 
Waaaaw. Tarnima jamila! 🙂

I forgot I also have a version of this sung by Metropolitan Elias Qurban (of Tripoli, Lebanon), who has one of the finest voices I’ve ever heard for Arabic Byzantine chant. This video reminds me a bit of him. Good stuff!
al-Masīḥ qām! Ḥaqqan qām!

Do you have a link?

I often get to hear the Liturgy and other services chanted in Arabic. It is a beautiful language–even though I do not comprehend much. 😃
 
Wow. Just wow. The contrast between the earlier and the later Latin hymns sure are striking, when presented this way.

Also, thanks for “Today is hung upon a tree” in the other post. That’s one of my favorites, although I am more familiar with it in Arabic than in English (it took me a second of vague “where have I heard this…” to place it, actually), thanks to the famous rendition by Fairuz (and the less famous but still excellent rendition by Suad Hashem). It’s absolutely electrifying, in any language. 👍
Archbishop JOB of Chicago (Memory Eternal!) sung it two Pascha’s ago. Stunning. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Dear brother Madaglan,
With Eastern Catholics, there are some who are more accepting of Latin atonement theories, others more critical. I am willing to admit that West and East early on begin to focus on different aspects, but on the atonement I do not believe that the West had the beliefs it does now.
But be careful not to lump the “West” in one ubiquitous category. Would you agree with that?
Regarding the present, the situation is such that many Latin Catholic theologians are learning their soteriology from the theological discourse of Protestants and others. We see this, for example, in the works of Latin Catholic theologians who argue that God, contrary to two thousand years of Christian tradition, is passible. I do note a distinction between Calvinist and other Protestant atonement theories, and those historically Latin Catholic, but I think certain Protestant teachings (as of penal substitution) have been melded into Catholic theology. We see this, for example, in Hans Urs Von Balthasar’s belief that Christ suffered separation from God and the pains of Hell.
What I find suspiciously missing in your response here are Catholic Magisterial statements regarding the Sacrifice or Atonement. There seems to be a penchant for EO to accuse the Catholic Church herself of every extremism that can be found in her theologians. I understand the notion that one can and should be able to take popular Catholic theologians as a gauge of Catholic orthodoxy and teaching, yet we all know that not even the teachings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are accepted in toto by the Catholic Magisterium. Despite a focus on the extremisms that exist in individual Catholic theologians, I’ve yet to see a criticism/commentary of the actual Magisterial/dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church herself from anti-Catholic sources. I’ve found that non-Catholic sources that focus on the actual Magisterial/dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church really don’t have much to say against Catholicism.

As someone who was once immersed in this same mindset against the Catholic Church, I’ve noticed this is the usual tactic non-Catholic polemicists use against the Catholic Church to lure members away from her. It’s pretty effective, I must admit, though not at all intellectually or morally honest. My own journey to the Catholic Church was not by way of reading individual Catholic theologians and Catholic apologetics, but mostly (95% of the time) by reading her Magisterial documents. If I had gone the theologian/apologetics route, it’s possible and highly probable I may not have come into the Catholic Church at all.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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