If the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, then is it as an institution violate that concept?

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thunderbolt94

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Hello,

I recently a few months ago made the decision to jump start my journey to join the Catholic church after coming to the realization that the Catholic church is the church started by Jesus Christ.

Recently, a friend of mine sent me this video trying to convince me that churches that are an institution similar to the Catholic church are not churches of God, but churches of men, because the church is not an institution, but a body of believers.

youtube.com/watch?v=74RCErK2XWw

For Catholics who are more experienced and more educated in the faith than I am, how do I respond to the claim that a church being an institution (such as the Catholic church) contradicts the notion that the church started by Christ is not an institution, but a body of believers?
 
I am not exactly sure what the question really is here.

Could you clarify?

An “institution” IS a “body of believers,” is it not?
 
YoungTradCath said:
I am not exactly sure what the question really is here.

Could you clarify?

An “institution” IS a “body of believers,” is it not?
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Sure. No problem.

According to my friend, the fact that churches like the Catholic church having a hierarchy, roles of bishops, priests, etc. is a form of organized religion, and basically makes the argument that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with Christ. He even goes as far as to not call himself a Christian, but rather a Christ follower. He claims that “organized religion” is against Christianity, and that churches as an institution (his term for the church having hierarchy structure, roles of bishops, etc.) is makes Christianity an organized religion, and not a relationship with God. In other words, he doesn’t believe the church of Christ is a visible body of believers on Earth (the church built by Christ on earth), but only, and ONLY a body of believers.

I’m hoping to correct my understanding of the Catholic Church’s teaching in regards to being an institution, or as a regards to having hierarchy of roles within the body of believers (i.e. The Catholic Church). Is my friend correct? How do I understand the role of Catholic church as the visible body of believers on earth?
 
thunderbolt94 said:
Sure. No problem.

According to my friend, the fact that churches like the Catholic church having a hierarchy, roles of bishops, priests, etc. is a form of organized religion, and basically makes the argument that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with Christ. He even goes as far as to not call himself a Christian, but rather a Christ follower. He claims that “organized religion” is against Christianity, and that churches as an institution (his term for the church having hierarchy structure, roles of bishops, etc.) is makes Christianity an organized religion, and not a relationship with God. In other words, he doesn’t believe the church of Christ is a visible body of believers on Earth (the church built by Christ on earth), but only, and ONLY a body of believers.

I’m hoping to correct my understanding of the Catholic Church’s teaching in regards to being an institution, or as a regards to having hierarchy of roles within the body of believers (i.e. The Catholic Church). Is my friend correct? How do I understand the role of Catholic church as the visible body of believers on earth?
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Problem with your friend’s argument is that he is denying the words and instructions of Christ Himself.
 
This guy is not worth responding to, for several reasons I’m not going to bother listing. But for your own edification, here are some suggestions.
  • A body is organized. That’s why they’re called organisms, and have organs. Even single-celled bacteria have organelles. Does he think the body of Christ on earth is a bag of saltwater?
  • Relationships have rules and rituals. That’s why we have graduations and weddings.
  • “Catholic” is not a denomination. We were forced to come up with a name to distinguish ourselves from heretics.
  • How can you make someone listen “to the Church” if the Church is not a visible organization?
  • For every true thing there is a false counterfeit, he says. Does he know how ironic he’s being?
 
thunderbolt94 said:
Sure. No problem.

According to my friend, the fact that churches like the Catholic church having a hierarchy, roles of bishops, priests, etc. is a form of organized religion, and basically makes the argument that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with Christ. He even goes as far as to not call himself a Christian, but rather a Christ follower. He claims that “organized religion” is against Christianity, and that churches as an institution (his term for the church having hierarchy structure, roles of bishops, etc.) is makes Christianity an organized religion, and not a relationship with God. In other words, he doesn’t believe the church of Christ is a visible body of believers on Earth (the church built by Christ on earth), but only, and ONLY a body of believers.

I’m hoping to correct my understanding of the Catholic Church’s teaching in regards to being an institution, or as a regards to having hierarchy of roles within the body of believers (i.e. The Catholic Church). Is my friend correct? How do I understand the role of Catholic church as the visible body of believers on earth?
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The Church itself, and all its clergy, were instituted by Christ himself. To deny this is to deny the basic tenets of Christianity. If he has a beef with organized religion, tell him to look at the vast majority of Protestant churches. If you get any less organized than that, I’m not sure you can have a belief system at all. He just sounds like some whiney Baptist/Methodist/whatever who says, “Oh, I don’t think (insert Catholic thing here) is right, so I’m just going to deny it.”

Any group of “followers” have to have something to follow, right? Right. What they follow is a set of beliefs, principles. Any number of people following one thing is, basically, in a general sense, an institution. If I say, “I like tacos,” and somebody in Canada says, “I like tacos, too,” then, effectively, although very weakly, we are part of an institution. If your friend “follows Christ,” I have some news for him. A LOT of people “follow Christ,” with varying levels of validity. Therefore, your friend is part of an institution, whether or not he believes he is or wants to be. The definition of an institution proves that.

When he gets into calling himself a “Christ follower” instead of a Christian, that’s just getting into semantics. It’s weak. It’s a really stupid argument to insist that he is not a Christian, but a “Christ follower.” That’s what a Christian IS! Anyone who believes in Christ on a doctrinal level is a Christian. To say one is not is like saying someone who follows the teachings revealed to Muhammad is not a Muslim, but instead a Muhammad follower. Do you see the ridiculousness?

Of course the Church is a body of believers/followers. Isn’t that what Christ himself instituted? I suggest your friend actually read the Bible.

If he says he follows Christ but at the same time denies that he is a Christian, well, I’m not sure that can logically work. That’s like saying 3 is 3 but it’s not 3.

It’s absolutely enraging sometimes how people can convince themselves of something with absolutely no backing, or just on a whim because someone finds something inconvenient. If this were my friend, I wouldn’t give him another thought on the subject ever again. It’s just such an unintelligent argument.

I hear people “claim” things all the time, but that doesn’t mean I have to listen to them and it certainly doesn’t mean I have to even give a thought to them.

We are social creatures. It is a basic human desire to be near people who share the same beliefs as us. The Church facilitates a relationship with Christ. I really don’t think your friend actually knows the first thing about Christianity.
 
thunderbolt94 said:
According to my friend, the fact that churches like the Catholic church having a hierarchy, roles of bishops, priests, etc. is a form of organized religion, and basically makes the argument that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with Christ. He even goes as far as to not call himself a Christian, but rather a Christ follower. He claims that “organized religion” is against Christianity, and that churches as an institution (his term for the church having hierarchy structure, roles of bishops, etc.) is makes Christianity an organized religion, and not a relationship with God. In other words, he doesn’t believe the church of Christ is a visible body of believers on Earth (the church built by Christ on earth), but only, and ONLY a body of believers.

I’m hoping to correct my understanding of the Catholic Church’s teaching in regards to being an institution, or as a regards to having hierarchy of roles within the body of believers (i.e. The Catholic Church). Is my friend correct? How do I understand the role of Catholic church as the visible body of believers on earth?
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Let me give this a shot . How knowledgeable of Church history , especially early Church history is your friend ? Does he know there was a Church before there was a New Testament ? Does he know the root word of religion means " to bind " ? If Christianity "binds " us to Christ , why is it not a religion . How can something that binds us to Christ be against Christianity ?

A former Protestant Minister who converted to Catholicism reminded me of something I had learned many years ago but had forgotten . The 1st century Christian ( meaning Catholic ) Church was all of the follwing :
  1. Evangelical ( as in preaching & converting , but not in a denominational sense )
  2. Liturgical ( the order of the Mass had already been worked out , a 1st century Christian
    would understand our liturgy , but not the language , in most cases )
    3.Eucharistic centered ( as in the True Presence , and certainly NOT symbolic )
    4.Hierarchical ( Deacons , Presbyters , Bishops ) .
The Church Christ founded had ALL 4 of these attributes then and now !
Unless your friend’s ecclesiastical community possesses all 4 of the above attributes , it can not be the Church founded by Jesus Christ .

Does your friend realize that by his logic , the Church went off the rails in the 1st century ? Would he say that ? Does he remember scripture passages that talk about building a city on a hill for all to see ? Does he remember the passage about not hiding your lamp under a bushel basket ? What does he think this means ? If he claims the Church went off the rails in the 1st century , why did he trust it to compile and canonize Sacred Scripture ? Does he know where the Bible comes from and when ? And who is going to call balls and strikes for that body of believers ? Does he know that the Bible comes from the Church ( Catholic ) , that the Church does not come from the Bible ?

How does he account for the New Testament passage ( I think it is in Timothy - somebody help me with this ) ," … the pillar and foundation of the truth is the church " ?

If he thinks the Curch became apostate , how does he reconcile that with Christ saying He wound send the Holy Spirit to safeguard His Church until the end of time ( that the gates of hell would not prevail against it ) ? If Christ broke his promise or lied , why even be Christian ? But , the Catholic Church , with the Deposit of Faith , IS STILL here .

How does he account for the 5 original Church Sees ( Alexandria , Jerusalem , Antioch , Constantinople and Rome) ? How does he account for Paul seeking out Peter ? How does he account for the 1st Council of Jerusalem ? Why was Paul writing letters to places not named in the 5 Sees ? Why was Ignatius of Antioch writing to other communities ?
Why did Augustine write , " Rome has spoken , the matter is settled " ?

I come to the Catholic Answers Forum through catholic.com ; the FAITH heading above directs you to many more sources on this subject . You can use the search engine in the FAITH section . Good luck !
 
I whole Heartedly agree that this FRIEND? isnt worth listening too.
Do not let the evil one sway you from your path.
 
HI Thunderbolt,

The way I interpert your question is basically, is the Church visable (meaning with structure) or invisable, meaning just a body of believers. In other words “Did Christ found a visible Church or an invisible Church?”

Here is one quote of many, that really seems to answer the question.

If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between him and thee alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.** And if he will not hear them, tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican. (Matt. 18:15–17)**

If the Church was not visable then what Church are we talking about here? Do I have to go to every Christian because we are all the invisible church? If a Lutheran and a Baptist disagree where do they go to get their dispute settled? Which Church… Lutherans or Baptist’s. How about the Evangelicals etc… No it is pretty clear that Christ had one visable Church in mind and that it was to be an authority.

These articles may help you as well.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea2.asp
 
Jesus chose the twelve Apostles out of all His disciples, to sit on the twelve thrones and judege the tribes of Israel, therefore He clearly intended a heirarchical Church.

He gave Peter the keys of the kingdom, which meant in effect that Peter was Christ’s representative. He also told Peter that he was the rock on which Christ would build the Church and, after the Resurrection, told him to “Feed my lambs…feed my sheep… feed my sheep…” cf John 21:15-17

There was a smaller group within the Apostles who were especially close to Jesus and were present at certain special events, this was Peter, James and John, they alone saw the Transfiguration, the Agony in the Garden and the raising of Jairus’s daughter.

In 1 Corinthians 12:12-31, St Paul says that the Church is the Body with Christ as its head. He goes on to say that there are different organs in the body, and that if all the parts were the same, what would happen to the body? Every part is needed. He explains that God gave more honor to some parts of the body than others, so that the body may not be divided but each part may care for the others. He then goes on to say:

"So God has appointed us in the Church. First apostles, second prophets, third teachers. Then come miracles, then the gift of healing, material help, administration in the church and the gift of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Can all perform miracles, or cure the sick, or speak in tongues, or explain what was said in tongues?" 1 Cor 12: 28-30

If your friend thinks that the Catholic Church is unbiblical then he obviously hasn’t read the Bible!

I am a convert to Catholicism, I experienced similar objections from various people. I realised that those who really cared for me, were the ones who were supportive and didn’t try to change my mind. I’ll remember you in my prayers and I hope that soon, you too will know that strange, wonderful moment when you step out of a Catholic Church, with oil still glistening on your forehead, and think “I’m Catholic now!” 😃
 
I think this is just another example of someone having a preconceived notion of what he thinks a religion should be, and he “builds” (kind of like cafeteria Catholics) his own religion around that selfish “should be” belief.
 
Wasn’t there a hierarchy already established by Christ in his time on earth? Everyone calls him Master, there are Apostles and there are Disciples. Disciples of course are students of a Master. The Apostles were Disciples of Christ, the Apostles then themselves have Disciples. A good read through of the New Testament shows there’s clearly a hierarchy. If not, St. Paul wouldn’t have written all those letters that give instruction.
 
First, WHY does he not call himself a Christian? Christian means “Christ one” (if I’m not mistaken), and the first Christians were called that. His thinking makes no sense there.

Second, your friend’s belief that there isn’t one right Christian Church is wrong. The apostles and all christians believed and taught one doctrine and were part of one church - one VISIBLE church. And what was Jesus referring to when he was talking about the church in Matt. 18:17? why report things to the Church if the Church won’t be right? And why do the epistles of Paul (especially 1st Corinthians) mention the Church so much if the church didn’t even really matter, because there isn’t one right church? Now you have to find that original church. The original church is the Catholic Church - the oldest Christian church in the world (started A.D 33 :)).

Oh, and by the way, ask if he knows how he got the Bible ;). If he doesn’t, let him know the Catholic Church gave him it at the council of Carthage.
 
DJK100 said:
HI Thunderbolt,

The way I interpert your question is basically, is the Church visable (meaning with structure) or invisable, meaning just a body of believers. In other words “Did Christ found a visible Church or an invisible Church?”

Here is one quote of many, that really seems to answer the question.

If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between him and thee alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.** And if he will not hear them, tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican. (Matt. 18:15–17)**

If the Church was not visable then what Church are we talking about here? Do I have to go to every Christian because we are all the invisible church? If a Lutheran and a Baptist disagree where do they go to get their dispute settled? Which Church… Lutherans or Baptist’s. How about the Evangelicals etc… No it is pretty clear that Christ had one visable Church in mind and that it was to be an authority.

These articles may help you as well.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea2.asp
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This is the answer that most fits my view as well.

The OP’s friend is laboring under the SS, non-denominational concept of the “invisible church” or as I like to refer to it as “Me and Thee and the KJV” (with the “Thee being Christ”).
I can tell you right now that there is little point in arguing with him about it because he simply won’t hear you. However, if you would like to offer him biblical references demonstrating that the Church (ekklesia) Christ founded is intended to be Visible and One, let Him ponder on these:

Christ, and the Apostles prayed for and exhorted the disciples of Christ to be one, to praise with one voice and agree on all things…
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Of course the non-denominational Sola Scriptura will come back with how they ARE united and “agree on essentials” but I have found that to be only a smoke screen because those who claim this cannot agree on what the essentials are…

As to the “Invisible Church” idea - This is quite anti-biblical.

The Church is Visible
As pointed out above, there is the passage in Mt 18:15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church ; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
This clearly says to “Tell it to The Church” and to “Listen to The Church”, for the Church has the authority to what? - Bind and Loose
How can something invisible have authority, as a unit, to bind and loose? How can we take our problems and disagreements to something invisible?

For confirmation and demonstration of this instruction one need only read Acts Chapter 15 where the trouble at Antioch over circumcision and other Mosaic requirements could not be resolved even with the intervention of the Great Apostle Paul.
The Problem was taken to “The visible and authoritative Church” - it was told “To The visible and authoritative Church” and the decision of "the visible and authoritative Church was binding on all communities.
In fact, NOWHERE in Scripture can it be definitively be shown where different communities acted independently of each other on doctrinal matters and were approved by the Apostles in such independence.

So we see above that Scripture itself (the only thing your friend will accept) denounces the concept of the invisible church.

I talked about this in some detail in a Blog post that I made on another board. Showing how visible, and Authoritative unity is, and should be, a natural outgrowth of the desire to preserve and spread the Truth of the Gospel.
If you’d like to read it, it is HERE

Peace
James
 
ConstantineTG said:
Wasn’t there a hierarchy already established by Christ in his time on earth? Everyone calls him Master, there are Apostles and there are Disciples. Disciples of course are students of a Master. The Apostles were Disciples of Christ, the Apostles then themselves have Disciples. A good read through of the New Testament shows there’s clearly a hierarchy. If not, St. Paul wouldn’t have written all those letters that give instruction.
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exactly

case closed 👍
 
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