If the church could would they

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If the church could, would they make all sin against the law of the land, this is hypothetical because the church doesn’t have that sort of power but would that be ideal for them or would they still want us to be able to choose whether or not to sin because of free will?
 
That is theocracy. There would certainly be people who want theocracy. Jesus, however, made the differentiation quite clear, give to Caesar what belong to Caesar, and to God what belong to God. Meaning that the Church accepts the fact that there would be secular government. Then Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world.

The reality is the Church should only be concentrating on the kingdom of God rather than the world.
 
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The premise is a little confusing. Even if the Church did make every single sin illegal, people would still have free will whether to follow the laws or not, just as they do with the laws we have. Passing laws does not effect a person’s free will.
 
Yeah I agree. People do and don’t follow God’s law, people do and don’t follow man’s law. Making the two perfectly overlap wouldn’t change that.
 
Tying the Church to the government hasn’t worked well in the past. Seems to get the church entangled in things that distract from the spiritual aspect.
 
The church doesn’t have any power ?
Do you believe THAT ?

The Catholic church - is the power - of all powers.
 
I’d hope you have A LOT OF REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BIG JAILS!!:roll_eyes:
 
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I said it doesn’t have THAT power, what I mean is that they can’t make laws of the land. Of course the church has power.
 
Allegra said:
The premise is a little confusing. Even if the Church did make every single sin illegal, people would still have free will whether to follow the laws or not, just as they do with the laws we have. Passing laws does not effect a person’s free will.
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Well said. Spiritual Commandments are not forced. They are between the individual and God. The most the Church can do is to give moral approval to good laws for good governance.
 
michael-kaw said:
If the church could, would they make all sin against the law of the land, this is hypothetical because the church doesn’t have that sort of power but would that be ideal for them or would they still want us to be able to choose whether or not to sin because of free will?
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You’re posing two questions here:
  • how the Church sees herself vis-a-vis secular leadership
  • how the Church views sin (from the perspective of the rejection of what is good and just)
The first question is pretty straightforward, and can be seen in the way she has acted throughout history. Even in the past two millennia, the Church never claimed that she replaces secular leadership. The Church may have asserted, against kings and governments, that she herself was a higher moral authority, but the Church never claimed to replace local authorities. So, the Church has never attempted to place itself as a theocracy over any country.

The second question brings a new consideration into play: having defined what is good and what is evil, and having witnessed the ways in which the various countries and governments have defined their criminal and civil law codes, the Church still realizes that people have free will… and therefore, people will choose to sin or not, and to commit crimes or not, based on the way they form their consciences and act according to them. In other words, no matter who defines the laws, the Church recognizes that we are “able to choose whether or not to sin”.

Does that help?

Blessings,
G.
 
FiveLinden said:
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Gorgias:
the Church never claimed to replace local authorities
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The Papal states. The Vatican.
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That’s the governance of lands owned by the Church herself, and not of other states. The papal states came into existence through donations of properties to the Church. Naturally, since the Church held those lands, she governed them. However, she did not attempt to establish a theocracy elsewhere.

Did the Church attempt to exert political might in the world? Yes, of course she did. However, she did not attempt to do so by taking over other nation-states and attempting to rule them directly.
 
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No. The Church would not make every sin illegal. It would be too impractical. Imagine wasting resources prosecuting the guy who ate too many chips while the murderers are still at large. Because there are degrees of sins that affect others. Eating too many chips may be harmful to you but it is not at the same level as killing others. In the middle ages they did not make every sin illegal even though they could have. While any sin is harmful. Some things are not worth wasting resources on compared to the larger ones. And it’s best to leave some things up to the person and God, offering counselling where needed. It’s not the Church’s responsibility to act like some kind of cop or to bring everyone to accountability for every little thing they do. The Church is in the business of saving souls and lets God ultimately be in charge of accountability.
 
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Even if the Church can, she will not do it. She can outsource for people to do it. Like a hotel chain, a good effective and efficient management can run them but following the owner’s policy.
 
My last response was the link to the Summa which addresses the question, but I was in a rush. Here is the answer :

Human laws should only prohibit vices “from which it is possible for the majority to abstain; and chiefly those that are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder, theft and such like.”.
 
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