If the soul exists, is it detectable?

[tonyrey]

Got it in one.

I’d have thought Catholic philosophers’ beliefs might be just a tiny bit relevant on Catholic Answers.

Agreed, but then it’s probably hard to find anyone who would disagree.

Ah, the old holier-than-thou shot. But given I never said it, and it’s got nothing at all to do with what I asked, and nothing to do with the OP, just a smidgen off-topic.

Why?

A bit soon for another holier-than-thou shot. We were having quite a good discussion too, but whatever, seems like all you want is another round of sound-bite ping-pong. (That was my holier-than-thou shot.)

Nothing in your post furthers the discussion…

 

[greylorn]

Neither of those seem to quality for anything like “sure it is”.

The first is about a project which was terminated in 1995 when an independent review concluded “it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon, remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.”.

The second is for something which closed in 2007, after showing that it might be possible to affect 2 or 3 out of every 10,000 coin tosses or the like , described by Robert L. Park as “an embarrassment to science, and I think an embarrassment for Princeton".

I’d be interested if you have any links to something which hasn’t been discredited - it seems that hoped-for paranormal effects always disappear when experimental procedures are tightened up, or else have much more mundane explanations.

You might want to read Dean Radin’s book, The Conscious Universe. Or, if you can find copies, F.W.H. Myers Human Personality and the Survival of Bodily Death.

It has been noted by philosophers Mortimer Adler and Thomas Kuhn that phenomena are accepted only if they are so widespread that their existence cannot be ignored, or, more importantly, if there is an accepted paradigm into which they fit.

Psi phenomena once had suitable paradigms, within religious systems such as Wicca, Voodo, the Kabalistic tradition, and various small religions localized to primitive tribes. Only a small percentage of individuals are reliably psychic, about the same percentage as those who are extraordinarily intelligent. Thus neither psi nor intelligence is a widespread phenomena.

They are related. Psi and high, imaginative intelligence are extremely difficult to demonstrate under “laboratory” conditions. In fact, I doubt that a controlled experiment could prove the existence of imaginative intelligence— i.e. the ability to have an idea which is unique.

Anyhow, the old paradigms which supported the legitimacy of psychic abilities are mostly gone, driven underground or labeled religious superstition, by mainstream religions who cannot abide competition. If there was a suitable framework for understanding the universe which accommodated both quantum tunneling and spoon bending at a distance, we might even have schools for psychically gifted individuals.

Of course there is a framework (mine), but it is a long way from anything that might look like acceptance. Someday, perhaps. The first school for gifted children must be named Hogwarts.

Although I’m not personally psychic, I’ve had psychic experiences in virtually all categories, including telekinesis and precognition. The only variety of psi that I can demonstrate on demand is telepathy. Most anyone can do that. Moreover, I participated in two distinct, well-controlled spoon bending exhibitions, in which Uri Geller bent a common restaurant spoon which we brought to the party, which he had no opportunity to doctor, and which was returned to us for examination immediately after the bendings, which were observed up close and personal.

 

[inocente]

Nothing in your post furthers the discussion…

Since you left me with nothing, as I already pointed out.

 

[inocente]

You might want to read Dean Radin’s book, The Conscious Universe. Or, if you can find copies, F.W.H. Myers Human Personality and the Survival of Bodily Death.

It has been noted by philosophers Mortimer Adler and Thomas Kuhn that phenomena are accepted only if they are so widespread that their existence cannot be ignored, or, more importantly, if there is an accepted paradigm into which they fit.

Psi phenomena once had suitable paradigms, within religious systems such as Wicca, Voodo, the Kabalistic tradition, and various small religions localized to primitive tribes. Only a small percentage of individuals are reliably psychic, about the same percentage as those who are extraordinarily intelligent. Thus neither psi nor intelligence is a widespread phenomena.

They are related. Psi and high, imaginative intelligence are extremely difficult to demonstrate under “laboratory” conditions. In fact, I doubt that a controlled experiment could prove the existence of imaginative intelligence— i.e. the ability to have an idea which is unique.

Anyhow, the old paradigms which supported the legitimacy of psychic abilities are mostly gone, driven underground or labeled religious superstition, by mainstream religions who cannot abide competition. If there was a suitable framework for understanding the universe which accommodated both quantum tunneling and spoon bending at a distance, we might even have schools for psychically gifted individuals.

Of course there is a framework (mine), but it is a long way from anything that might look like acceptance. Someday, perhaps. The first school for gifted children must be named Hogwarts.

Although I’m not personally psychic, I’ve had psychic experiences in virtually all categories, including telekinesis and precognition. The only variety of psi that I can demonstrate on demand is telepathy. Most anyone can do that. Moreover, I participated in two distinct, well-controlled spoon bending exhibitions, in which Uri Geller bent a common restaurant spoon which we brought to the party, which he had no opportunity to doctor, and which was returned to us for examination immediately after the bendings, which were observed up close and personal.

Agreed it would be exciting if the paranormal was real, but I’ve never seen anything more than stage magic.

With all the magic tech gadgets in the shops (Arthur C Clarke’s any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic), the paranormal has lost its luster. Who needs telepathy when you can make calls and upload your videos by wifi even on the top of Everest?

Personally my main issue is never finding a half-way reasonable manifestation. It seems that with every claimed paranormal phenomenon a strong initial effect weakens away to nothing as procedures are tightened to rule out more mundane explanations. This has happened so often that it’s made me very skeptical. It would be interesting if just once something was found, but the real finding might instead be that we’re all exceptionally good at imagination but not so hot at separating fact from fiction.

There are a number of hits on google telling us how to bend spoons, but the idea itself already leaves me cold – whatever purpose belief in the paranormal served in old religions, reducing it to torturing cutlery seems quite a comedown.

 

[PRmerger]

There are a number of hits on google telling us how to bend spoons, but the idea itself already leaves me cold –

Bend spoons? shaw:

I prefer to bend an elbow. .

 

[greylorn]

Agreed it would be exciting if the paranormal was real, but I’ve never seen anything more than stage magic.

With all the magic tech gadgets in the shops (Arthur C Clarke’s any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic), the paranormal has lost its luster. Who needs telepathy when you can make calls and upload your videos by wifi even on the top of Everest?

Personally my main issue is never finding a half-way reasonable manifestation. It seems that with every claimed paranormal phenomenon a strong initial effect weakens away to nothing as procedures are tightened to rule out more mundane explanations. This has happened so often that it’s made me very skeptical. It would be interesting if just once something was found, but the real finding might instead be that we’re all exceptionally good at imagination but not so hot at separating fact from fiction.

There are a number of hits on google telling us how to bend spoons, but the idea itself already leaves me cold – whatever purpose belief in the paranormal served in old religions, reducing it to torturing cutlery seems quite a comedown.

I find people who believe as you do, quite peculiar. I can understand such skepticism as you voice, enhanced by failure to study pertinent material or investigate for oneself (as I did when the material was not enough), on the part of an atheist. But you claim to be a Baptist, and thus a fairly conventional sort of Christian.

Your own beliefs in soul-creation and universe-creation by an omnipotent God, and the notion that you will survive a single, simple life in spirit form, forever, are far more fanciful than psi phenomena. But nevermind these considerations, as you will in any case. There is an even more interesting consideration, I think it warrants a thread of its own and will initiate it forthwith under the title, Why Christians Should Accept Psychic Phenomena.

In the meantime, I am surprised that an otherwise well educated individual would take such a strong stance on a subject about which he has so far chosen to remain ignorant. Dean Radin belongs on your reading list. He has a physics degree, and I think that you will appreciate the quality of his presentation, as well as the mathematics involved, in a way that not many others can. Please give him an honest read. If the book proves of no value to you, I’ll buy it back.

 

[greylorn]

There are a number of hits on google telling us how to bend spoons, but the idea itself already leaves me cold – whatever purpose belief in the paranormal served in old religions, reducing it to torturing cutlery seems quite a comedown.

Uri Geller’s spoon bendings would be of marginal interest except for the fact that they bend opposite to gravitational force.

When frauds and charlatans like the less-than-amazing Randi bend spoons or whatever, they bend in the gravitationally expected direction.

 

[inocente]

Bend spoons? shaw:

I prefer to bend an elbow. .

Cheers, make mine a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster.

Here’s what the Encyclopedia Galactica has to say about alcohol. It says that alcohol is a colourless volatile liquid formed by the fermentation of sugars and also notes its intoxicating effect on certain carbon-based life forms. The Hitch Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol. It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. It says that the effect of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. The Guide also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one and what voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate afterwards. – Douglas Adams

 

[inocente]

I find people who believe as you do, quite peculiar. I can understand such skepticism as you voice, enhanced by failure to study pertinent material or investigate for oneself (as I did when the material was not enough), on the part of an atheist. But you claim to be a Baptist, and thus a fairly conventional sort of Christian.

Your own beliefs in soul-creation and universe-creation by an omnipotent God, and the notion that you will survive a single, simple life in spirit form, forever, are far more fanciful than psi phenomena. But nevermind these considerations, as you will in any case. There is an even more interesting consideration, I think it warrants a thread of its own and will initiate it forthwith under the title, Why Christians Should Accept Psychic Phenomena.

In the meantime, I am surprised that an otherwise well educated individual would take such a strong stance on a subject about which he has so far chosen to remain ignorant. Dean Radin belongs on your reading list. He has a physics degree, and I think that you will appreciate the quality of his presentation, as well as the mathematics involved, in a way that not many others can. Please give him an honest read. If the book proves of no value to you, I’ll buy it back.

Not so strange. Baptists are more “we preach Christ crucified” than “we have all these cool theories about God” people - no doubt it’s easier to think of a famous Belgian than an ivory tower Baptist.

We don’t tend to believe a lot of things that those of certain other religions might, and we don’t really talk about the soul, the definition is so hazy I’m not sure there’s a quorum for exactly what it’s supposed to be. If we live forever, I think our ego, our “I” will either not join us in heaven or will gradually fade away, otherwise while the first trillion years might go by in a excitable blur, after that it might drag a bit. And of course Jesus is not big on ego anyway, the exact opposite. Which implies the definition of soul needs some careful thought, but there doesn’t seem much point in theorizing about eternal life when none of us can actually know in the here and now.

So some Christians might be more inclined than me to believe in the paranormal. I’ve looked into it but never found a reason to believe. There are so many things that various folk want us to believe, and as well as never finding any evidence for the paranormal, it just seems rather dull, there’s nothing in it that’s inspiring or life changing.

Sorry.

 

[inocente]

Uri Geller’s spoon bendings would be of marginal interest except for the fact that they bend opposite to gravitational force.

When frauds and charlatans like the less-than-amazing Randi bend spoons or whatever, they bend in the gravitationally expected direction.

Didn’t understand - intermolecular forces have so much more bearing that gravity can surely be ignored?

 

[GEddie]

Not so strange. Baptists are more “we preach Christ crucified” than “we have all these cool theories about God” people - no doubt it’s easier to think of a famous Belgian than an ivory tower Baptist.

We don’t tend to believe a lot of things that those of certain other religions might, and we don’t really talk about the soul, the definition is so hazy I’m not sure there’s a quorum for exactly what it’s supposed to be. If we live forever, I think our ego, our “I” will either not join us in heaven or will gradually fade away, otherwise while the first trillion years might go by in a excitable blur, after that it might drag a bit. And of course Jesus is not big on ego anyway, the exact opposite. Which implies the definition of soul needs some careful thought, but there doesn’t seem much point in theorizing about eternal life when none of us can actually know in the here and now.

So some Christians might be more inclined than me to believe in the paranormal. I’ve looked into it but never found a reason to believe. There are so many things that various folk want us to believe, and as well as never finding any evidence for the paranormal, it just seems rather dull, there’s nothing in it that’s inspiring or life changing.

Sorry.

???

Of course your ego, your “you” has to enter eternal life with you; else “you” aren’t there at all! Capisce??

It may be more helpful to think of your mind rather than your “ego” or personality as being the “you”. The term ego has acquired a somewhat nondeserved pejorative connotation over time, since it is associated with selfishness, and we are not supposed to be selfish. But our LORD never said that our psychological humanness was to be dissolved or set aside. Indeed, the humanness of our minds will be resolidified in Heaven as the pneumatikon soma.

Also, there are no trillions of years passing. Successive time is caused by the entropy in our earthly bodies; the pneumatikon soma has no time.

ICXC NIKA

 

[tonyrey]

Nothing in your post furthers the discussion…

You started with nothing! As Lear said, nothing shall come of nothing…

 

[greylorn]

Not so strange. Baptists are more “we preach Christ crucified” than “we have all these cool theories about God” people - no doubt it’s easier to think of a famous Belgian than an ivory tower Baptist.

We don’t tend to believe a lot of things that those of certain other religions might, and we don’t really talk about the soul, the definition is so hazy I’m not sure there’s a quorum for exactly what it’s supposed to be. If we live forever, I think our ego, our “I” will either not join us in heaven or will gradually fade away, otherwise while the first trillion years might go by in a excitable blur, after that it might drag a bit. And of course Jesus is not big on ego anyway, the exact opposite. Which implies the definition of soul needs some careful thought, but there doesn’t seem much point in theorizing about eternal life when none of us can actually know in the here and now.

So some Christians might be more inclined than me to believe in the paranormal. I’ve looked into it but never found a reason to believe. There are so many things that various folk want us to believe, and as well as never finding any evidence for the paranormal, it just seems rather dull, there’s nothing in it that’s inspiring or life changing.

Sorry.

Thank you for the thoughtful and interesting reply. I didn’t know that about Baptists, figuring them all to be pretty much fundamental Christians, like my local Baptist sect whose members hold explicit (and IMO bizarre) views about the nature of God and soul. Your notions of soul seem to me to be a far more reasonable alternative (given the paucity of information Christ revealed about it) than the rigorous opinions held by the locals and others.

I agree that the definition of soul needs some careful thought. I’ve given it my best efforts, which may someday lead to its becoming a serious object of investigation.

The problem with the paranormal is not lack of evidence-- it is lack of a suitable paradigm into which the evidence fits.

For lack of a paradigm, the last century-odd of paranormal research has been dedicated to proving the reality of psi phenomena. Yes, boring! But actually playing around with it is more interesting— like the difference between studying the physics descriptions of angular momentum and playing with a gyroscope.

IMO the paranormal is one gateway to the understanding of everything, but that is because of a different perspective. For example, I think that there is a connection between dark energy and Uri Geller’s bent spoons.

 

[greylorn]

Didn’t understand - intermolecular forces have so much more bearing that gravity can surely be ignored?

I apologize for being unclear. Geller’s spoons and keys bend upward, against the force of gravity. Moreover, there is no sign of metal fatigue at the bend.

Randi’s and others’ spoons and keys bend with the force of gravity, and show definite signs of metal fatigue, particularly on brittle metals.

It would seem that Geller is indeed affecting intermolecular forces, but not by direct application of mechanical force. Something else is going on.

 

[Galt]

There is a fantastic science vs religion debate with some amazing questions and big thinking going on at: soulneeds.com/circles/view?id=330&title=science-versus-religion