If the TLM is made more available

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It seems that many Catholics on this forum (which we all know is sadly NOT representative of Catholics in general) are very much in favor of Pope Benedict giving the freedom for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. I personally don’t really have an opinion on the matter. But what I am worried about is what could happen if he does. After the Novus Ordo became the norm in the US we had a flood of people doing things ‘in the spirit’ of Vatican II.

If the Tridentine Latin Mass is made more available, there will be people who will do things ‘in the spirit’ of the motu proprio. I guess my question is whether or not this would be acceptable. Would it be okay, for instance, if a parish celebrates the NO for the Liturgy of the Word, and then switches to the TLM for the Liturgy of the Eucharist? Can people mix and match parts from the two different masses? And more importantly, if this is not suppose to happen, as I don’t think it should, how will the bishops be able to police this new wave of well intentioned abuses?

Peace
 
papaspicy said:
It seems that many Catholics on this forum (which we all know is NOT representative of Catholics in general)
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You are wrong about that my friend. This forum sees only a very small fraction of those who long for a for faithful church and more reverent liturgical celebrations.
If the Tridentine Latin Mass is made more available, there will be people who will do things ‘in the spirit’ of the motu proprio.
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I certainly hope so. It will take a tremendous swing of the pendulum to return it to anywhere near center.
 
papaspicy said:
It seems that many Catholics on this forum (which we all know is sadly NOT representative of Catholics in general) are very much in favor of Pope Benedict giving the freedom for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. I personally don’t really have an opinion on the matter. But what I am worried about is what could happen if he does. After the Novus Ordo became the norm in the US we had a flood of people doing things ‘in the spirit’ of Vatican II.
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I imagine that there were such same worries when Ecclesia Dei came out in 1988. There weren’t that many TLMs set up but at least it put some pressure to make many of the new rite services more reverent, at least in my opinion. Do you think the “spirit” of the “Motu Proprio” will result in more abuses than the “spirit” of Ecclesia Dei?
 
No. As far as i know, there would be no mix and match. The NO Mass would be the NO Mass, and the same with the TLM. It would not make sense to mix and match at all. Either the Mass is in english, or its in Latin. but not both.
 
papaspicy said:
It seems that many Catholics on this forum (which we all know is sadly NOT representative of Catholics in general) are very much in favor of Pope Benedict giving the freedom for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. I personally don’t really have an opinion on the matter. But what I am worried about is what could happen if he does. After the Novus Ordo became the norm in the US we had a flood of people doing things ‘in the spirit’ of Vatican II.

If the Tridentine Latin Mass is made more available, there will be people who will do things ‘in the spirit’ of the motu proprio. I guess my question is whether or not this would be acceptable. Would it be okay, for instance, if a parish celebrates the NO for the Liturgy of the Word, and then switches to the TLM for the Liturgy of the Eucharist? Can people mix and match parts from the two different masses? And more importantly, if this is not suppose to happen, as I don’t think it should, how will the bishops be able to police this new wave of well intentioned abuses?

Peace
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The bishop is basically responsible for making sure that Mass is celebrated properly in his diocese. So if Rome sends out guidelines that a Mass must be either wholly NO or wholly Tridentine then the bishop will interpret for local conditions, and as a last resort suspend any priest who disobeys.

However priests are human. Sometimes it is better to let a priest do things his own way even if strictly it isn’t allowed. Better a ministry the priest believes in than one which is resentful.
 
Frank_Fenn said:
No. As far as i know, there would be no mix and match. The NO Mass would be the NO Mass, and the same with the TLM. It would not make sense to mix and match at all. Either the Mass is in english, or its in Latin. but not both.
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Languages can be mixed and matched in the Novus Ordo (ala EWTN’s Latin/English and many papal masses’ various languages) but missals should not be, just as you stated.

(I think that’s what you meant but just to clarify)
 
Frank_Fenn said:
No It would not make sense to mix and match at all. Either the Mass is in english, or its in Latin. but not both.
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That is not true. In fact one of the Vatican II documents, Sacrosanctum Concilium, The Consitution on the Liturgy, specifically stated that some parts of the Mass may be done in the vernacular, while others remain in Latin.
  1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
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Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
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The intent of Vatican II was to have the readings and Common prayer to be in the vernacular, but have the remaining prayers (especially the Eucharistic Prayer) to be in Latin. Note that it does not directly extent the use of the vernacular to the priest, but rather only to the people.

In did authorize a bishops conference to use the vernacular to a larger extent, but that is as an indult.

And even then, note that that Vatican II required that the faithful also be able to say or sing their parts of the Mass IN LATIN.

I wonder how many parishes truly follow Vatican II’s directives 😉
 
Brendan said:
That is not true. In fact one of the Vatican II documents, Sacrosanctum Concilium, The Consitution on the Liturgy, specifically stated that some parts of the Mass may be done in the vernacular, while others remain in Latin.

The intent of Vatican II was to have the readings and Common prayer to be in the vernacular, but have the remaining prayers (especially the Eucharistic Prayer) to be in Latin. Note that it does not directly extent the use of the vernacular to the priest, but rather only to the people.

In did authorize a bishops conference to use the vernacular to a larger extent, but that is as an indult.

And even then, note that that Vatican II required that the faithful also be able to say or sing their parts of the Mass IN LATIN.

I wonder how many parishes truly follow Vatican II’s directives 😉
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interesting.
 
It is my understanding that the Holy Father does not wish to free the TLM as museum piece, but as a living liturgy that will develop organically. As witness to this, the Holy Father has approved a new missal produced by traditional Benedictines in France. It is the 1962 Missal with the current sanctoral cycle. That is the type of change in the TLM that can be expected, not a hybridization of the TLM and the Novus Ordo.

Justin
 
Personally I like the mixture of both english and latin. I think for those of us who are not well versed in the latin, it brings a sence of beauty and understanding. I had rather the faithful participate in the liturgy than simply sitting there doing all other sorts of things during the Mass. God Bless, D
 
1962Missal said:
It is my understanding that the Holy Father does not wish to free the TLM as museum piece, but as a living liturgy that will develop organically. As witness to this, the Holy Father has approved a new missal produced by traditional Benedictines in France. It is the 1962 Missal with the current sanctoral cycle. That is the type of change in the TLM that can be expected, not a hybridization of the TLM and the Novus Ordo.

Justin
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The Mass Propers are a different issue. Word changes or sanctoral cycles are not noticed as much. The Mass itself, from Psalm 42 to the Last Gospel, are definitely noticed. So give us the new saints already. 😃
 
Frank_Fenn said:
No. As far as i know, there would be no mix and match. The NO Mass would be the NO Mass, and the same with the TLM. It would not make sense to mix and match at all. Either the Mass is in english, or its in Latin. but not both.
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Sorry, but you are wrong on this one.
 
Frank_Fenn said:
No. As far as i know, there would be no mix and match. The NO Mass would be the NO Mass, and the same with the TLM. It would not make sense to mix and match at all. Either the Mass is in english, or its in Latin. but not both.
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Actually, the N.O. is in Latin. There is currently permission to say portions in the vernacular.
 
Ignatius said:
Actually, the N.O. is in Latin. There is currently permission to say portions in the vernacular.
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All the Novus Ordo Masses I have been to are in the vernacular. No Latin. Not even one word. Not even the hymns are in Latin. So isn’t it misleading to say that the NO is in Latin, with portions in the vernacular?
 
paramedicgirl said:
All the Novus Ordo Masses I have been to are in the vernacular. No Latin. Not even one word. Not even the hymns are in Latin. So isn’t it misleading to say that the NO is in Latin, with portions in the vernacular?
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See my post (#7) above.

The Vatican II Council authorized certain parts of the Mass to be said in the vernacular, the Readings and any Common prayers of the People. None of the priest’s prayers were initially authorized to be said in the vernacular (including the Eucharistic Prayer)

The Council (in Sacrosanctum Concillium) allowed a wider use of the vernacular only by agreement of the local bishops synod AND with approval of the Holy See.

So any use of the vernacular apart from the Readings and common prayers of the people would be, by definition, an indult and not normative.
 
There’s a whole lot of indultin’ goin’ on! 😃
Brendan said:
See my post (#7) above.

The Vatican II Council authorized certain parts of the Mass to be said in the vernacular, the Readings and any Common prayers of the People. None of the priest’s prayers were initially authorized to be said in the vernacular (including the Eucharistic Prayer)

The Council (in Sacrosanctum Concillium) allowed a wider use of the vernacular only by agreement of the local bishops synod AND with approval of the Holy See.

So any use of the vernacular apart from the Readings and common prayers of the people would be, by definition, an indult and not normative.
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Brendan said:
See my post (#7) above.

The Vatican II Council authorized certain parts of the Mass to be said in the vernacular, the Readings and any Common prayers of the People. None of the priest’s prayers were initially authorized to be said in the vernacular (including the Eucharistic Prayer)

The Council (in Sacrosanctum Concillium) allowed a wider use of the vernacular only by agreement of the local bishops synod AND with approval of the Holy See.

So any use of the vernacular apart from the Readings and common prayers of the people would be, by definition, an indult and not normative.
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Well I guess every Novus ordo Mass I have ever been to (with the exception of two in the US) are indult Masses and not normative. Either the priests here don’t know any Latin, or Rome and the bishops have given them permission to never, ever use any Latin.
 
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