If there existed no type of contraception would people still have sex like they do

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If there existed no condoms and you were not married do you think people would still have sex before marriage like they do? I know I wouldn’t. If I knew you could get pregnant or even get diseases so easily say the man had a vasectomy or the woman had her tubes tied even for medical reasos, you risk even more withouth condoms in “not thinking” about this and just act out whatever you want. I really really think that our “power” of using contraception in forms of condomes, and the pill actually takes away our power to behave right. It is just one more little push to giving in. And then we do. Easily. Again and again. What do you think?
 
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lovethetruth:
If there existed no condoms and you were not married do you think people would still have sex before marriage like they do?
Yes, because history shows us that they did. Human beings have gotten neither better nor worse over time, and no one has yet found a method of effectively controlling them. In Victorian England, which was so repressed about sex that people even wrapped cloth around the legs of tables in order to prevent them from inciting lust, there were more prostitutes relative to the total population than there are now.
 
I think contraception promotes sex outside of marriage because it makes it “easier” for people to have sex and get away with it by avoiding the worldly consequences of getting pregnant (or getting someone pregnant) and/or getting a disease.

Also, in regards to disease I see no justification in the many arguments that support contraception claiming that it helps prevent disease. If sex only occurs in a marriage there would be no danger of contracting a disease. At WYD I recall hearing about a Catholic organization made up of mainly young adults that wanted the Pope to support the use of contraception. Their main argument was that contraception helps prevent AIDs and other STDs from spreading. It may indeed help, but it only helps those who practice sex outside of marriage. So basically they are supporting the position that sex is acceptable outside of marriage. You can’t be a Catholic and support sex outside marriage. On top of that they are openly saying that sex could be purely for pleasure which is what it’s reduced to when contraception is used. This is totally opposite of the Church’s teaching. They should instead by trying to promote abstinence and teaching people that what the purpose of sex is.
 
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Mystophilus:
Yes, because history shows us that they did. Human beings have gotten neither better nor worse over time, and no one has yet found a method of effectively controlling them. In Victorian England, which was so repressed about sex that people even wrapped cloth around the legs of tables in order to prevent them from inciting lust, there were more prostitutes relative to the total population than there are now.
You mean people back then would look at legs of tables and start having lustful thoughts!?!? Wow, I didn’t know it was that bad back then.
 
Mt19:26:
If sex only occurs in a marriage there would be no danger of contracting a disease. At WYD I recall hearing about a Catholic organization made up of mainly young adults that wanted the Pope to support the use of contraception. Their main argument was that contraception helps prevent AIDs and other STDs from spreading. It may indeed help, but it only helps those who practice sex outside of marriage.
…and the children born to them, and those who share drug needles with them, and those who come into contact with their blood in other ways, whether by accident or in medical practice. This is particulary important for HIV. Condoms do reduce the sexual transmission of HIV, which then reduces the total number of virus hosts, thus reducing the propagation of the virus through non-sexual transmission. The Church’s moral stand against contraception should be tempered by consideration for the medical impact: condoms should be permitted because they will save lives.
 
Mt19:26:
You mean people back then would look at legs of tables and start having lustful thoughts!?!? Wow, I didn’t know it was that bad back then.
I don’t think any lustful thoughts were ever actually caused by people looking at table legs, but yes, some people did put skirts around tables, pianos, etc. for reasons of decency. It was a very weird time in history, sort of an opposite extreme to the 1960s.
 
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Mystophilus:
…and the children born to them, and those who share drug needles with them, and those who come into contact with their blood in other ways, whether by accident or in medical practice. This is particulary important for HIV. Condoms do reduce the sexual transmission of HIV, which then reduces the total number of virus hosts, thus reducing the propagation of the virus through non-sexual transmission. The Church’s moral stand against contraception should be tempered by consideration for the medical impact: condoms should be permitted because they will save lives.
That has not been the experience in Africa, where HIV infection is nearly pandemic. Only Uganda, which has promoted chastity and monogamy, has experienced a decline in the infection rate.
 
Joseph Bilodeau:
That has not been the experience in Africa, where HIV infection is nearly pandemic. Only Uganda, which has promoted chastity and monogamy, has experienced a decline in the infection rate.
Just thought I would highlight that, since it’s one of the few success stories in Africa, which promotes abstinence, monogamy, and faithfulness in marriage, to reduce HIV infection. And it has worked.

Now as to the actual question, this will surely date me, but I went to high school in a time when condoms were widely unavailable (and the pill was not yet on the market.) Condoms, if available, were kept behind the pharmacy counter, and you had to ask for them if you wanted them. And if you were a teenager, or even unmarried, they probably wouldn’t be sold to you. (In some places, it was illegal to sell them to the unmarried.)

The result was, hardly any contraceptives were available. The result of that was, nobody–in high school anyway–was having sex. And we had no–zero–teen pregnancies.

Oh–and of course–no STD’s either. People who got those generally got them from prostitutes.
 
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Mystophilus:
…and the children born to them, and those who share drug needles with them, and those who come into contact with their blood in other ways, whether by accident or in medical practice. This is particulary important for HIV. Condoms do reduce the sexual transmission of HIV, which then reduces the total number of virus hosts, thus reducing the propagation of the virus through non-sexual transmission. The Church’s moral stand against contraception should be tempered by consideration for the medical impact: condoms should be permitted because they will save lives.
The Church’s moral stand on contraception will never change because to do so would go completely against what the Church teaches about sex. And what the Church teaches comes directly from God. Sex, or more appropriately called the marriage act, is meant to bring new life into the world and to provide a means for married persons to grow closer in love for each other. Practiced anywhere else is sinful. When sex involves someone with whom you are not married to it’s adultery. When it involves two unmarried people it’s fornication. Practicing sex apart from marriage is probably the easiest way for a human to earn a fastrack to hell. Given what God tells us about sex outside of marriage the Church is not going to support anything that even comes close to suggesting that sex is sometimes permissible outside of marriage which is what it would be doing by support contraception. They are also not going to support contraception for the simple fact that contraception removes one of the primary reasons for sex which is to bring new souls into the world. The marriage act, through contraception, is reduced to a selfish act of wanting the pleasure of sex but on your terms and not God’s which demands that the marriage act is always open to life. It’s impossible for the Church to support contraception because it will go against what it has teached for 2000 years and what God has commanded the Church to teach. Just because it could prevent disease it not a reason. There are other ways to prevent disease and that is only through practicing sex where God says it’s permissible and where it is permissible is within the Covenant of Marriage, no where else. The correct way to stop the spread sexually transmitted disease is to only practice sex within a marriage.
 
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JimG:
The result was, hardly any contraceptives were available. The result of that was, nobody–in high school anyway–was having sex. And we had no–zero–teen pregnancies.
It’s ironic that contraception, designed to prevent unwanted pregnancies, actually is what is responsinle for almost all of them. And of course, almost every abortion happens after some form of contraception has failed 😦
 
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Genesis315:
It’s ironic that contraception, designed to prevent unwanted pregnancies, actually is what is responsible for almost all of them. And of course, almost every abortion happens after some form of contraception has failed 😦
That’s quite true, and it was precisely the prediction made by Paul VI in Humanae Vitae, the most widely ignored and yet most accurately prophetic encyclical of modern times.

What an irony! Contraception causes unplanned pregnancies, abortions, HIV, and STD’s!.
 
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lovethetruth:
If there existed no condoms and you were not married do you think people would still have sex before marriage like they do? I know I wouldn’t. If I knew you could get pregnant or even get diseases so easily say the man had a vasectomy or the woman had her tubes tied even for medical reasos, you risk even more withouth condoms in “not thinking” about this and just act out whatever you want. I really really think that our “power” of using contraception in forms of condomes, and the pill actually takes away our power to behave right. It is just one more little push to giving in. And then we do. Easily. Again and again. What do you think?
Doubt it
 
I don’t know if the frequency would change, but I kind of believe that ones sense of obligation towards the consequences would. Seems there was a time in this country where if you got a girl preggers, you married her. Because contraception devalues human life, people shirk their responsibility of its potential outcomes. That’s just my humble opinion. I don’t have any facts to back it up other than lived experience.
 
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Mystophilus:
…and the children born to them, and those who share drug needles with them, and those who come into contact with their blood in other ways, whether by accident or in medical practice. This is particulary important for HIV. Condoms do reduce the sexual transmission of HIV, which then reduces the total number of virus hosts, thus reducing the propagation of the virus through non-sexual transmission. The Church’s moral stand against contraception should be tempered by consideration for the medical impact: condoms should be permitted because they will save lives.
Ok quick lesson in biology/science here. Viruses are very small. The HIV virus is so small that a molecule of water is several times larger than it. Being that condom companies use water to test the effectiveness of their product the ability of a condom is pretty much nominal since ALL latex has microscopic holes in it. Other viral STD’s can be passed despite the use of condoms as well. Even in the best circumstance condoms are 90% effective and if the man keeps them in his wallet or somewhere out of optimal conditions the effectiveness drops even further. Now you have the facts, giving kids condoms is like giving them loaded guns, in the end playing with them might cost them their lives.

Ok now to play the devils advocate…

As for sex outside of marriage I seriously doubt that one could correlate any increase in extramarital sex and the use of contraception over the course of history. The Victorian age was a good example. Only “loose” women were expected to enjoy sex and men were not expected to be able to control their “marital urges” hence the view of the time was that prostitution was a necessary evil. After all a good husband wouldn’t burden his wife with such base urges any more then absolutely necessary. I really don’t think that this indicates any step forward in thinking. Fast forward to the time when most people think everything was hunky-dory… the fifties. This time was viewed by many as a time when family values reached their zenith. Well the truth is that there were plenty of girls still getting pregnant, they were just usually shipped off to birthing homes. In fact many historians see the fifties as the leading cause of the rebellion of the sixties.

I’m not saying that things today are any greater but I do believe that in one sense the society con only have so much effect on it’s people. Inevitably many relationships will occur before and outside of marriage, I don’t think we can ever eliminate that. What we can change is how we deal with the fallout. As Christians we are called not to throw stones at those who fall. Forgiveness and reconciliation are the keys to healing, not judgment and blame.

In closing let me relate a story. I lived next to a girl who was a few years older than me. She partied and was pretty out of control. Her parents worried for her safety. Well she became pregnant as a result and at first we were all very concerned. Turns out that becoming a mother was the best thing that could have happened to her. She turned to God and even asked the church for forgiveness and support of her decision to come back to God. In the end God used a child to bring his child back to him. Just goes to show that Gods will is a lot stronger than a piece of latex…
 
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Shlemele:
As for sex outside of marriage I seriously doubt that one could correlate any increase in extramarital sex and the use of contraception over the course of history. The Victorian age was a good example. Only “loose” women were expected to enjoy sex and men were not expected to be able to control their “marital urges” hence the view of the time was that prostitution was a necessary evil. After all a good husband wouldn’t burden his wife with such base urges any more then absolutely necessary. I really don’t think that this indicates any step forward in thinking. Fast forward to the time when most people think everything was hunky-dory… the fifties. This time was viewed by many as a time when family values reached their zenith. Well the truth is that there were plenty of girls still getting pregnant, they were just usually shipped off to birthing homes. In fact many historians see the fifties as the leading cause of the rebellion of the sixties.
In your description of the Victorian age, it sounds like it was the men who were engaged in extramarital sex with just a small percentage of the women. In the age of contraception (the pill and the condom), it is equally men and women who engage in extramarital sex, so I would have to disagree with you when you say 'I seriously doubt that one could correlate any increase in extramarital sex and the use of contraception over the course of history. The Victorian age was a good example."

If you look back at the young people in the 50’s and prior to the 50’s, I would have to think that they did not engage in premarital sex nearly as much as the young people of the 60’s and in subsequent decades. For those of you who were young prior to the sixties, what was life really like regarding sex? That is prior to my time. But I can tell you that after the 60’s, there was very little fear of pregnancies and diseases could be cured, so premarital sex was almost taken for granted and now society pays a cost in increased abortions (in fact, a few years after the invention of the pill, abortion was legalized), AIDS, and other diseases that can not be cured.
 
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Journeyman:
If you look back at the young people in the 50’s and prior to the 50’s, I would have to think that they did not engage in premarital sex nearly as much as the young people of the 60’s and in subsequent decades. For those of you who were young prior to the sixties, what was life really like regarding sex? That is prior to my time.
Well, I gradutated from high school just as the 50’s were coming to a close. There was very little pre-marital sex. Nobody wanted to get pregnant or to be responsible for a pregnancy. Contraception was mostly not available and abortion was illegal. There were really only two choices when faced with an out-of-wedlock pregnancy: get married or give the baby up for adoption. (And I did know of a few very stable marriages which came about in this way.)

It’s true that there were homes for unwed mothers. After giving birth, the children were most often given up for adoption, which was really best for them.

It sounds remarkable in our time, yet it really wasn’t. I might have been tempted to think that my own experiences reflected a particular insularity of my own town, (even though it was a rather large city), but an incident somewhat later in USAF technical school provides some reinforcement.

We were housed in a large barracks / dormitory type setting, with six men to a room. One night, the discussion turned, as it sometimes does, to matters of sex. The one talking admitted that well, even though he talked about it a lot, he had never actually “done it.” One by one, every person in the room made the same comment. None had any sexual experience, and these were men between the ages of 18 and 22, not all just out of high school.

Now that’s only an isolated incident, but I think it was typical. Sex was for marriage, because engaging in it outside of marriage was just too dangerous. If you want to get an idea of what happened to change everything, start with the article “Sex, Lies, and Videotape” in the latest issue of This Rock magazine. Kinsey and Hefner soon made the abnormal to be normal.
 
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Shlemele:
Ok quick lesson in biology/science here. Viruses are very small. The HIV virus is so small that a molecule of water is several times larger than it…
This is not correct.

First, a definition of measurements.

A Meter (m) is about 39 inches, or a bit more than a yard (1.0 m)

A Micrometer (µm) is one millionth of a Meter (0.000,001 m)

A Nanometer (nm) is one billionth of a Meter (0.000,000,001 m)

A Picometer (pm) is one trillionth of a Meter (0.000,000,000,001 m)

A water molecule consists of three atoms only, one oxygen and two hydrogen, and is about 100 picometers (0.000,000,000,100 m) wide measured along one oxygen-hydrogen bond. Other ways of measuring can yield slightly longer or shorter widths or lengths, but not far from this ballpark figure. As molecules go, water is a very small molecule.

The HIV A and B viruses are much larger. These contain proteins that themselves are vastly larger than a water molecule as they may contain hundreds or thousands of atoms. In fact, the breakdown of one of these proteins into simpler proteins or amino acids might also result in the release of one or more water molecules as a by-product. I don’t know how many atoms there are in an entire HIV virus, but these viruses are about 120 nanometers (0.000,000,120 m), or to put them in the same measurements as used for thr water molecule, 120,000 picometers. This is over 1000 times the length/width of a water molecule and might be likened to a comparison between a giant redwood tree 300 feet tall and a blade of grass three inches tall.

This is not to say though, that we can not deduce something about the effectiveness of condoms against HIV. While an HIV virus is vastly larger than water molecule, it is also considerably smaller than a human spermatozoon, and as the failure rate of condoms with respect to pregnancies attests, condoms are not entirely effective in excluding objects the size of a human spermatozoon. Human spermatozoa consist of a head 5 µm by 3 µm and a tail 50 µm long. This means that in its narrowest dimension a human spermatozoon is 3,000,000 picometers, which is 25 times wider than an HIV virus, just in the spermatozoon’s smallest dimension (excluding the flagellum). This is like comparing a 6 foot tall man with a 2.8 inch tall mouse. We should not expect an opening that the man can walk through to be capable of keeping out the mouse.

Another consideration that should be kept in mind regarding condoms’ effectiveness against HIV is a woman’s monthly fertility cycle, as condom failure rate is measured in instances of pregnancy occuring in women using condoms as a contraceptive. Depending on the sources checked, the effectiveness of condoms against pregnancy is rated from 86% to 99.98%, which implies a failure rate of .02% to 14%. But this does not take into consideration the fact that most women are only capable of becoming pregnant from sexual intercourse on only about 25% percent of the days in their monthly cycle. If an actual condom “failure” occured at such an infertile time, meaning that the condom did not successfully prevent seminal fluid from entering the woman’s body, but no pregnancy occurred, this would not be factored as a condom failure.

As there is no reason to believe that there are naturally occuring times either in a man or a woman in which a person sexually exposed to HIV is significantly less likely to become infected, comparable to infertile times in which a woman is significantly less likely to become pregnant, this suggests that the failure rate for condoms regarding HIV infection might be expected to be as much as four times higher than the failure rate regarding pregnancy, or .08% to 56%. When considering that many women who use condoms might also use additional contraceptive methods that might prevent pregnancy even if an actual condom failure occur, this failure rate regarding HIV infection might be expected to be even higher.
 
I think this thread brings to mind that men and women are all sinners. In the past 40 years, since the “sexual revolution” began, sex is now perceived by many as a form of recreation. Wow, just watch TV for a few minutes, and you can see that sex is rarely about love and procreation. However, are the values of the young people from 1965 and forward really that much different from the values of the young people prior to 1965? Perhaps the only thing stopping the pre-1965 young from getting caught up in the “sexual revolution” is that the perceived consequences were too great, namely pregnancy. After the mid to late 1960’s, that changed.

I think that very few people today really understand God’s plan for sex. I have read the “Theology of the Body” and my eyes were opened. Sex is not just for “fun” and to “feel good” as society seems to preach today. I knew that was the case, but I didn’t really understand why the Church said no to “premarital sex”. But the problem, as I perceive it, is that there are not enough priests and clergy, and for that matter, lay people who can talk about God’s plan for sex. The reason for not having sex outside of marriage is not just to not get pregnant. Sex is within marriage because it is a total self giving of one to the other, and this can not be done with one-night stands and recreational sex.

Society has really distorted sex. Hopefully and prayerfully, the Church can preach the truth about sex and marriage using the model taught by John Paul II.

BTW JimG, thanks for your informative response about your generation.
 
Joseph Bilodeau:
That has not been the experience in Africa, where HIV infection is nearly pandemic. Only Uganda, which has promoted chastity and monogamy, has experienced a decline in the infection rate.
You have apparently leapt to the conclusion that I am arguing against abstinence. I’m not.
 
Mt19:26:
The Church’s moral stand on contraception will never change because to do so would go completely against what the Church teaches about sex. And what the Church teaches comes directly from God.
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6 - quoted twice by Jesus)

Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for a man to humble himself?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying on sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD ?

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
Code:
Is it not to share your food with the hungry
   and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
   when you see the naked, to clothe him,
   and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? (Isaiah 58:6-8)
He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.(Micah 6:8)

But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the LORD, who is good, pardon everyone who sets his heart on seeking God—the LORD, the God of his fathers—even if he is not clean according to the rules of the sanctuary.” And the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people.(2 Chronicles 30:18-20)

See also Isaiah 1:10-7, Psalm 50, Matthew 5:7, Matthew 23, James 2:13, or just go here and read through all of them.

Mercy first.
 
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