If we become saints- do our souls all look the same?

[rcuk]

I am playing ‘devils advocate’ in some sense here.

We all have to strive for Sainthood- to reach heaven. So must all lose our current lives, and live for Jesus. He lives in us and through us.

So say, God willing, we reach saintly purity, and we reach Heaven. There we will be as souls.
If we are all pure in heaven- what makes us different in the eyes of God?
He sees our souls- and we are all aiming for the same state of purity.

God made us to know and love him and be with him in the next life. I wonder if God only desires that we experience his love? This is why he created us? He wants to love us?

Is there nothing God wants to experience from this people He created? I.e. diversity? Or is he just all-giving? He wants us all to be pure, so we all know and love Him and reap that benefit for eternity?

 

[mgoforth]

We can be holy and still have differences. Some have greater capacities to understand God intellectually, some relate better to His role as Creator. Others will be able to appreciate His beauty more fully. Reaching Heaven will perfect our individuality, not destroy it.

“Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone.” 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

 

[MichaelHowling]

Each one of us is separate and distinct. Each is very unique and another one will never be made like you. Look at all the different species of trees! And with all the different species, how many trees are in each species…AND… depending on their genetic makeup and location in which they live with different weather and water, nutrient and sun conditions…each tree is individual, each tree has different sizes, shapes, colors, reasons for being, each leaf on the tree is separate and distinct!

Each tree is doing Gods perfect will! It is being a tree like it has been called to be!

So to with us!

Our holiness is not dependant on us being the same…it’s dependant on being who we have been made to be. We are separate and distinct and it’s how we use our “separate and distinct” gifts to Gods purpose that helps us actually become holy. For instance… two gifts I know I have are listening/giving advice and taking care of the sick. So, I’ve been trying to conform my life to work at these…they bring me happiness, when I practice them I have more to pray for, I learn much, I look at life more differently etc etc.

You are to use YOUR gifts in a Jesus-like way!

Is anyone like John Paul II ?
Padre Pio?
Mother Theresa ?

The more the YOU you become (the YOU that God made you as…being YOU in the proper context…jesus-like… ) …the more holier you’ll become.

holiness…to become a saint…is dependant on 2 things in my mind…being the you you were called to be. and 2 …really doing nothing! Just letting God love you!

God bless.

 

[JayXT]

We can be holy and still have differences. Some have greater capacities to understand God intellectually, some relate better to His role as Creator. Others will be able to appreciate His beauty more fully.

This I like and makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

Each one of us is separate and distinct. Each is very unique and another one will never be made like you. Look at all the different species of trees! And with all the different species, how many trees are in each species…AND… depending on their genetic makeup and location in which they live with different weather and water, nutrient and sun conditions…each tree is individual, each tree has different sizes, shapes, colors, reasons for being, each leaf on the tree is separate and distinct!

This on the other hand, I disagree with. You speak of trees and leaves, which are all physical entities, which increase the mathmatical possibilities of variable differences. However, those possibilities are not infinite, they are finite. Throughout the entire existence of Earth it is inevitable for something to be identical to something that has previously existed due to the fact that the variables are not infinite.

Now, when you look at the human consciousness alone, excluding all physical characteristics and flaws, the number of different variables becomes smaller. Because at that point you are only focusing on experiences, thoughts, emotions, order of events, and other factors of the conscious mind. So, it actually increases the possibility that someone else will think, act, and react, just as you do. There is not an infinite pool of different thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Haven’t you ever thought of something that someone had thought of before you, but you thought of it without knowing of the other person?

That is because it is finite. It is immpossible for every human being to be completely unique. Eventually, if it hasn’t already happen, someone will walk this earth who thinks, feels, and lives just as you do.

 

[Bookcat]

I am playing ‘devils advocate’ in some sense here.

We all have to strive for Sainthood- to reach heaven. So must all lose our current lives, and live for Jesus. He lives in us and through us.

So say, God willing, we reach saintly purity, and we reach Heaven. There we will be as souls.
If we are all pure in heaven- what makes us different in the eyes of God?
He sees our souls- and we are all aiming for the same state of purity.

God made us to know and love him and be with him in the next life. I wonder if God only desires that we experience his love? This is why he created us? He wants to love us?

Is there nothing God wants to experience from this people He created? I.e. diversity? Or is he just all-giving? He wants us all to be pure, so we all know and love Him and reap that benefit for eternity?

Different. And different with our resurrected bodies at the resurrection too.

 

[Bookcat]

Side Note on the term “saints”:

Christians who are living “in Christ” are saints. Here on earth too.

We believe what Paul and other New Testament writers mean when they use the term.

Now over the centuries yes another use of the term saints developed. Saints has been yes used for those who have lived as saints in a heroic way (by the grace of God of course).

And yes later a process of canonization developed to recognize them, honor them and propose them as special models for the Christian faithful in following Christ.

Thus one can say there are saints and also Saints in the canonized sense or at least the recognized sense (they were recognized long before the process of canonization developed…especially Our Lady, the Apostles and Martyrs).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church 823 :

"The Church, then, is “the holy People of God,” and her members are called “saints.”

And from Pope Benedict XVI:

“In his First Letter to the Corinthians, St Paul addresses “those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor 1: 2). Indeed, Christians are already saints because Baptism unites them to Jesus and to his Paschal Mystery…”

(and then discussing becoming --more holy --more conformed to Christ he continues…)

“…but at the same time they must become so by conforming themselves every more closely to him.”

“Sometimes, people think that holiness is a privileged condition reserved for the few elect. Actually, becoming holy is every Christian’s task… The Apostle writes that God has always blessed us and has chosen us in Christ “that we should be holy and blameless before him… in love” (Eph 1: 3-5). … The “Way” is Christ, the Son, the Holy One of God: “no one comes to the Father but by me [Jesus]” (cf. Jn 14: 6).”

1 November 2007
vatican.va/

 

[JimG]

This I like and makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

This on the other hand, I disagree with. You speak of trees and leaves, which are all physical entities, which increase the mathmatical possibilities of variable differences. However, those possibilities are not infinite, they are finite. Throughout the entire existence of Earth it is inevitable for something to be identical to something that has previously existed due to the fact that the variables are not infinite.

Now, when you look at the human consciousness alone, excluding all physical characteristics and flaws, the number of different variables becomes smaller. Because at that point you are only focusing on experiences, thoughts, emotions, order of events, and other factors of the conscious mind. So, it actually increases the possibility that someone else will think, act, and react, just as you do. There is not an infinite pool of different thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Haven’t you ever thought of something that someone had thought of before you, but you thought of it without knowing of the other person?

That is because it is finite. It is immpossible for every human being to be completely unique. Eventually, if it hasn’t already happen, someone will walk this earth who thinks, feels, and lives just as you do.

Actually, I think that each individual human being is unique and will always be, even in heaven. Even if we had identical physical characteristics, we would be unique at least in our personhood. That is why God creates each human soul individually: he creates this one and not that one, no two alike. You will always be you and not your identical twin, because you are distinct persons.

It is somewhat similar to the situation with angels, who might be viewed as souls without bodies (but they are designed purposely that way–lack of a body is not a defect for them.) Theology also tells us that each angel is unique–so unique that each angel might be categorized as a distinct species of being.

I conclude that there will be a great variety of persons in heaven. Thomas Aquinas is quite different from Francis of Assisi, and from everyone else. We will all retain our unique gifts. No one is redundant.

 

[JayXT]

Actually, I think that each individual human being is unique and will always be, even in heaven. Even if we had identical physical characteristics, we would be unique at least in our personhood. That is why God creates each human soul individually: he creates this one and not that one, no two alike. You will always be you and not your identical twin, because you are distinct persons.

It is somewhat similar to the situation with angels, who might be viewed as souls without bodies (but they are designed purposely that way–lack of a body is not a defect for them.) Theology also tells us that each angel is unique–so unique that each angel might be categorized as a distinct species of being.

I conclude that there will be a great variety of persons in heaven. Thomas Aquinas is quite different from Francis of Assisi, and from everyone else. We will all retain our unique gifts. No one is redundant.

I agree with you as far as angels because there is a limited number of them when compared to human beings. It has been estimated that approximately 107,602,707,791 humans have lived on this Earth to date. Under the limits of finite possibilities of conscious traits and characteristics, I do not believe that it is mathematically possible for us to be unique.

In fact, I theorize that God may maintain a certain balance of personalities, only known to himself, at a given time. So, they will interact or counteract in the way he wishes, and that this balance is maintained. When one leaves this Earth, another one replaces this person, or more, depending on the balance God may want to achieve at that given point. But, it is just a theory.

 

[JimG]

I agree that there may be a limited number of personality types. But personality is not person. Our souls are the spiritual aspect of human beings, and each soul is unique, having the faculties of intellect and will, and expressing one’s nature in the aspect of personhood.

Even in the Godhead, while the nature is one, there are three distinct persons.

 

[Brendan]

Will still be recognizable as individuals, even more so that we are in this lifetime. For example, identical twins are commonly mistaken for each other, especially by those who do not know them intimately. but they will be immediately recognized as individuals, as we will all know each other intimately, even more than by physical appearances.

Look to the example of the Transfiguration. The Apostles immediately knew that Elijah and Moses were present, and that it was them. No hesitation, no introductions, no confusion about how it could be them. The Apostles just KNEW.

So it will be with us, when we are all in our glorified bodies.

 

[JayXT]

I agree that there may be a limited number of personality types. But personality is not person. Our souls are the spiritual aspect of human beings, and each soul is unique, having the faculties of intellect and will, and expressing one’s nature in the aspect of personhood. .

Yes, but those characteristics you described are finite, not infinite. There are only so many feelings, thoughts, experiences, choices one can make in any given scenario, levels of intelligence, will, and emotional depth. That is what your soul is; therefore, uniqueness is an impossibility. The gap is massively large, but still, with high probability, impossible.

It has been estimated that approximately 107,602,707,791 humans have lived on this Earth to date, and counting. Under the limits of finite possibilities of conscious traits and characteristics, I do not believe that it is mathematically possible for us to be unique.

Edit: HOWEVER, something just occurred to me while thinking about this. There may be a loop hole, while there is a high probability that all mentioned above makes uniqueness an impossibility…our DEEDS to others or for others may be the key to our uniqueness. Because of the large gap I stated about, brings about another calculation…the people you interfere with. Due to this gap, it is highly improbable that even if your soul was identical to another, the people the two of you would be surrounded by would be the same. So, theoretically, maybe it is our deeds we do to others that make us truly unique in God’s eyes? Just a thought.

 

[JimG]

Yes, but those characteristics you described are finite, not infinite. There are only so many feelings, thoughts, experiences, choices one can make in any given scenario, levels of intelligence, will, and emotional depth. That is what your soul is; therefore, uniqueness is an impossibility. The gap is massively large, but still, with high probability, impossible.

The human soul is a spiritual, not a physical entity, and each spiritual entity is unique.

 

[mommamaree]

No, of course not. Does every gemstone look the same? Does a ruby look like an emerald? Does a sapphire look like a diamond? Does a pearl look like an opal? Furthermore, does every diamond look exactly like every other diamond? The answer is an obvious no.

We are each an unrepeatable, irreplaceable, unique human being. God is infinite, and therefore infinitely creative. Just like every gemstone looks different and beautiful in its own way, so does each human soul.

 

[JayXT]

No, of course not. Does every gemstone look the same? Does a ruby look like an emerald? Does a sapphire look like a diamond? Does a pearl look like an opal? Furthermore, does every diamond look exactly like every other diamond? The answer is an obvious no.

With this logic, you would have to uncover every gemstone and compare each one. Your way of thinking brings up a good point though. It is due to our limited perception that we see things unique. We are unable to see all of the peices. We are unable to know every single person alive, or those who have lived. So, uniqueness is founded on limited perspective when it comes to physical and nonphysical characteristics. But, I added a edit thought above about a possibility of something that may create genuine uniqueness, I will add it here.

HOWEVER, something just occurred to me while thinking about this. There may be a loop hole, while there is a high probability that all mentioned above makes uniqueness an impossibility…our DEEDS to others or for others may be the key to our uniqueness. Because of the large gap I stated about, brings about another calculation…the people you interfere with. Due to this gap, it is highly improbable that even if your soul was identical to another, the people the two of you would be surrounded by would be the same. So, theoretically, maybe it is our deeds we do to others that make us truly unique in God’s eyes? Just a thought.

So, possibly, it is through deeds and deeds alone that defines us to God? What do you think?

 

[JimG]

With this logic, you would have to uncover every gemstone and compare each one. Your way of thinking brings up a good point though. It is due to our limited perception that we see things unique. We are unable to see all of the peices. We are unable to know every single person alive, or those who have lived. So, uniqueness is founded on limited perspective when it comes to physical and nonphysical characteristics. But, I added a edit thought above about a possibility of something that may create genuine uniqueness, I will add it here.

So, possibly, it is through deeds and deeds alone that defines us to God? What do you think?

Well of course, our actions add to the differences which make us unique.

But even as to the gemstones: Consider two ‘identical’ gemstones side by side. Each has the same color, shape, molecular structure, the exact same number of atoms within it. Are they perfectly identical? No. Because this one occupies this space, and that one occupies that space. This one was formed on this date and that one was formed on a different date. One will be destroyed sooner than the other. They have unique timelines, unique world-lines. They do not occupy the same space at the same time. They are not the same stone.

If I have a twin who is identical to me in every way, he is still not me. He cannot say “I am JimG,” without our egos and identities being merged into one, without both of us occupying the same space, the same time, and having the same world line.

 

[JayXT]

Well of course, our actions add to the differences which make us unique.

But even as to the gemstones: Consider two ‘identical’ gemstones side by side. Each has the same color, shape, molecular structure, the exact same number of atoms within it. Are they perfectly identical? No. Because this one occupies this space, and that one occupies that space. This one was formed on this date and that one was formed on a different date. One will be destroyed sooner than the other. They have unique timelines, unique world-lines. They do not occupy the same space at the same time. They are not the same stone.

Oh, that is a interesting perspective on it! Thank you. I will think that over for awhile.

 

[rcuk]

I will read through all of these posts properly. Quite an interesting discussion, and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

"holiness…to become a saint…is dependant on 2 things in my mind…being the you you were called to be. and 2 …really doing nothing! Just letting God love you!’

There is a speaker called Matthew (Kelly?) who gives a presentation called ‘the best versions of ourselves’ or ‘become the best version of yourself’ which attests to this comment above.

Thanks again.’

 

[rcuk]

I’ll also look closely as JayXT was banned. I feel sort of guilty since all 5 posts were in my thread…

 

[Vico]

I am playing ‘devils advocate’ in some sense here.

We all have to strive for Sainthood- to reach heaven. So must all lose our current lives, and live for Jesus. He lives in us and through us.

So say, God willing, we reach saintly purity, and we reach Heaven. There we will be as souls.
If we are all pure in heaven- what makes us different in the eyes of God?
He sees our souls- and we are all aiming for the same state of purity.

God made us to know and love him and be with him in the next life. I wonder if God only desires that we experience his love? This is why he created us? He wants to love us?

Is there nothing God wants to experience from this people He created? I.e. diversity? Or is he just all-giving? He wants us all to be pure, so we all know and love Him and reap that benefit for eternity?

St. Thomas Aquinas noted that there will be three particular classes of blessed souls honored beyond the rest, in accordance with the exceptional victories in the three human conflicts:

1. 
   *] virginity (virgins),
   *]persecution (martyrs),
   *]the conflict with the devil (doctors and preachers).
   
   **
   Matthew 16
   **27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. **
   
   Matthew 19
   **28 Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
   29 And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times more, and will inherit eternal life. **
   
   Daniel 12**
   3 But the wise shall shine brightly like the splendor of the firmament, And those who lead the many to justice shall be like the stars forever.
   
   Revelation 7
   11 All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
   12 and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
   13 Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
   14 I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
   15 “For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
   16 They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
   17 For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
   
   Revelation 14
   3 They were singing (what seemed to be) a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth.
   4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.
   5 On their lips no deceit has been found; they are unblemished.
   And, the blessed in glory will have no pity on the damned we see from Psalm 58:11: Then the just shall rejoice to see the vengeance and bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked
   and Psalm 68:23-24The Lord has said: “Even from Bashan I will fetch them, fetch them even from the depths of the sea. You will wash your feet in your enemy’s blood; the tongues of your dogs will lap it up.”