If you weren't raised as a Catholic, do you believe you would be Catholic today?

[tonyrey]

I went to a state school when I was eleven, drifted away from the Church and regarded religion as sentimental and old-fashioned. At the age of sixteen I had to study the poems of the French atheist Alfred De Vigny - especially La mort du loup * - and realised how misguided he was. In my first year at university my professor noticed I had been to a Catholic primary school and suggested I had a chat with the Catholic chaplain. I reluctantly agreed and after a few meetings I was on the trail that led to standing on a soapbox in public - on the seafront not in Hyde Park!

• It is a fine poem which is worth reading online - with an English translation:

brindin.com/pfvigmor.htm

“Seul le silence est grand; tout le reste est faiblesse.”

It is only on rereading my post I’ve noticed I implicitly rejected De Vigny’s dictum by speaking out on behalf of the Catholic Evidence Guild!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

God knows. Suppose I was raised as a Catholic and lost faith and then I reverted to being a Muslim who became a suicide bomber and then I had the mission to kill Protestant Missionaries and then the bomb did not explode and the Protestant said: “what are you doing there with your eyes wide open”, and then I would say: “I should be dead. Am I in heaven with all that was promised to me?” and the missionaries said: “Ns, son, you are on Earth but you will be in Heaven if you Accept Jesus!”.And I accepted Jesus and became a Protestan Missionary, but had to unload the bombs into a river that crossed by and the bombs exploded and there were millions of fishes comning up the water.and all the villagers were happy because they had fish to dry and children, women and men all went to the river to catch the fish. I was happilly reaching the Word of God but somehow missing that I had to delay my going into heaven, when the nice and smiling Protestant Missionaries told me to Go to the Shaolin to preach the word of God. But When I reached there, they said that they had heard some other protestant churches preaching and they did not want to hear more so, to spend the time I started to learn Kung-Fu with the monks and we had to meditate everyday. and I started to feel an inner peace that I never felt before since my first communion. And, helas, surprise, the next day a Catholic missionary came into town and he had a smiling face and did not preach and helped the poor, the lepers, the TB man, the sick, and invited me to his mass and tears came to my eyes as I remembered the same gestures, the same words, and I said, I want to become like this holy man that does not talk much but does good and serves the humble and the poor and the destitute. And I said: “Father, I want to be like you!” and He said: “Why my son?”; and I said: “Because you make me remember the face of a man I saw when I was a child in a picture: he had a circle in his head and spines in his heart and was raising his hand with 2 fingers up”: The holy man gave a big laughter and said: “That is Jesus,my son, I am a priest and I am not worthy to tie the chords of his sandals!”; and I said: "I want to be like you; and he said: “You will be like Jesus”. The old man priest died, I visit his tomb every week and here I am, healing the wound, treating the lepers and the TB, helping the poor and fighting for justice. I am not in a hurry to go to Heaven anymore. I have got much to do here.

NO, it is not true. I was answering a shor answer and I found myself that I could not stop till the end.

 

[ndeparis88]

I think one of the things that helped me out the most was going to RCIA. I was never confirmed in High School due to well what I said above in my last post. It kind of comes in with the hose of un catechized adults. We have now multiple generations and it really has been something that has hurt us.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Converts and reverts are free to answer as well.

I wasn’t raised as a Catholic, but became Catholic due to a sort of “spiritual push”, plus circumstances.

However I also became Christian in the real sense due to the same sort of “spiritual push”, plus circumstances, at an earlier date.

In the end, God is in charge, but we have the option of saying “no”.

So there’s no guarantee that any of us would be Catholic, since we are all free to refuse the offer, or lose our faith even if at some early stage we may have been quite devout. I’ve seen people lose their faith. I remember one lady who used to lead the singing at her local church (not Catholic). But after a while I had this sense she was just “going through the motions”.

Not long after that she left her husband (I suspect for another man) and I’ll be surprised if she’s still in a church today. Yet she was one of the highly visible Christians in her church before she threw it all away.

None of us can lay claim to a hard and fast guarantee that we’ll become or remain Catholic or Christian, whether we’re a cradle Catholic, convert or revert.

 

[Julia_Mae]

None of us can lay claim to a hard and fast guarantee that we’ll become or remain Catholic or Christian, whether we’re a cradle Catholic, convert or revert.

Sure we can. I do.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Sure we can. I do.

I believe Bob Crowley is correct, which indicates to me the level of experience and wisdom he has. To make such a bold assertion such as the one you’ve posted clearly flies in the face of Scripture. St. Paul instructed in his letter to the Philippians that they should “work out their salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). The writer of the epistle of James mocks those who believe they know the future: “Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes” (James 4:14). It is Church teaching that faith is a grace from God, and that you can lose it. It’s not permanent. Only Protestants (those who follow Calvin) believe that their faith is permanent, which forms the essence of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine, and we know that’s flawed.

King Solomon was given great wisdom - more than any man that came before and after him - yet his life ended in ruin. He married multiple wives and resorted to a witch. God hid his face from him, and that’s probably why he wasn’t canonized amongst the likes of King David (who had his own sins he had to deal with).

 

[Julia_Mae]

I believe Bob Crowley is correct, which indicates to me the level of experience and wisdom he has.

Your an atheist, what would you know about it? This is what he said:

None of us can lay claim to a hard and fast guarantee that we’ll become or remain Catholic or Christian, whether we’re a cradle Catholic, convert or revert.

Of course I know I will remain Christian and Catholic. I know it in the same way I know there is a tree growing in front of my window. You can cut down the tree and remove the stump and pave over the hole, but it will never make me doubt the fact of the tree.

I may become psychotic at some point, I might get Alzheimer’s, I might not be able to recall or be aware of what I know, but that won’t make me not Christian Catholic, it will just make my physical self ill. I might not recall this place I live or the tree out front, won’t change that I live here and that the tree exists.

Yes, I can say with complete certainty that nothing can make me not know what I do know. You are right about one thing: it’s a gift from God.

Atheists operate under the false assumption that everyone of faith has a “belief.” This is incorrect. Many of us have seen, experienced and know.

A person who says, ‘I believe just at this moment…but I cannot answer for myself that I shall believe tomorrow,’ does not believe.​

No man can worship, love, or trust in a probable God.

John Henry Newman

(chipeto posted this quote in another thread)

 

[JRKH]

Your an atheist, what would you know about it? This is what he said:

Calm yourself Julia. Bohm was a Catholic who now has lost his faith. Is it then any surprise that he agrees with Mr Crowley’s assessment?

Of course I know I will remain Christian and Catholic. I know it in the same way I know there is a tree growing in front of my window. You can cut down the tree and remove the stump and pave over the hole, but it will never make me doubt the fact of the tree.

I may become psychotic at some point, I might get Alzheimer’s, I might not be able to recall or be aware of what I know, but that won’t make me not Christian Catholic, it will just make my physical self ill. I might not recall this place I live or the tree out front, won’t change that I live here and that the tree exists.

Yes, I can say with complete certainty that nothing can make me not know what I do know. You are right about one thing: it’s a gift from God.

Atheists operate under the false assumption that everyone of faith has a “belief.” This is incorrect. Many of us have seen, experienced and know.

I am glad to see that you have this firmness of your faith, but just as a something to consider. Peter had many great experiences with Jesus. One could easily put in in the category of having, “seen, experienced and know”. He even made a claim quite similar to yours on Holy Thursday evening. Yet when his first trial came later that same night, he denied Jesus three times.
In fact most all who had been with Jesus for much of His ministry and had “seen experienced, and knew”, fled and hid and even after the resurrection some would not believe He had risen.

I do not say this to belittle your faith or your professed surety. I mention it only to show that even Mr Crowley has a point in his remarks.

Peace
James

 

[Julia_Mae]

Calm yourself Julia. Bohm was a Catholic who now has lost his faith. Is it then any surprise that he agrees with Mr Crowley’s assessment?

I’m entirely calm, I assure you. I also understand perfectly why Bohm agrees. What he did was make an assessment of character based on statement about faith. I simply asked him what he’d know about faith as he’s an atheist. He’s also a grown-up with plenty of forum chops who doesn’t need anyone else to defend him.

I am glad to see that you have this firmness of your faith, but just as a something to consider. Peter had many great experiences with Jesus. One could easily put in in the category of having, “seen, experienced and know”. He even made a claim quite similar to yours on Holy Thursday evening…

No, he didn’t. He said He wouldn’t deny. Do you think at any time when Peter was denying Jesus he doubted Jesus was Who Peter knew He was? He knew what he knew. He just didn’t want to be crucified.

My knowledge is unassailable. I would, however, be the first to recant publicly in the most cowardly fashion, I am sure, if someone offered to put me on a cross and drive spikes through my hands.

That cannot change the knowledge of God and Christ that I have. As I said, there’s a tree. And nothing can make there not be a tree.

God is more real than the keyboard I type on. I do not “believe.” I did not “decide” or “choose” or read anything or become convinced.

I also am less than delighted with you trying to lecture me personally instead of simply expressing your own opinions about your own faith, please refrain from such in future. If you believe you can become an atheist someday, well …

**A person who says, ‘I believe just at this moment…but I cannot answer for myself that I shall believe tomorrow,’ does not believe.​

No man can worship, love, or trust in a probable God.**

John Henry Newman

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

JRKH essentially hit the nail on the head, so I don’t believe it is necessary to repeat what is obviously a great post. I also don’t know what being an atheist has to do with this thread at all. You seem fascinated by the fact that I am an atheist; this is the second/third time you’ve pointed it out (on different threads). You used to be a Mason; have I ever held that against you?

No, he didn’t. He said He wouldn’t deny. Do you think at any time when Peter was denying Jesus he doubted Jesus was Who Peter knew He was? He knew what he knew. He just didn’t want to be crucified.

Peter was a waverer in his faith during all of Jesus’ ministry. His lack of faith caused him to sink at sea when Jesus was walking on water, to which Jesus says: “**“You of little faith,” . . .] “why did you doubt?” **”(Matthew 14:31). If Peter really knew who Jesus was who he said he was, then he wouldn’t doubt and he would have walked confidently on the water. Peter doubted because he lacked faith. That’s why Peter goes on to exclaim in this event that Jesus truly was the Son of God.

Peter denied Jesus three times not only out of fear, but also because he was unsure of who exactly Jesus was. Let’s not forget that fear itself stems from a lack of faith. Jesus remarked that if God takes care of even the birds, how much more would he take care of human beings? Jesus remarked that his followers should “be of good cheer” (John 16:33) because he overcame the world. Yet despite these instructions and analogies, Peter still had fear and still wavered with his belief about whether Jesus was the real deal.

Peter lived and ate with Jesus. Peter was the one Jesus gave the keys of Heaven and was made the first Pope. So this isn’t any average Joe we are speaking about. Even he denied who Jesus was, and wasn’t completely sure if Jesus was really God Incarnate. It’s only by God’s grace, as Scriptures indirectly tell, that Peter was saved anyway. So to make the claim that you know you will be a faithful Catholic for years to come is to make the claim that you are somehow more virtuous than Peter - a man who was actually present with Jesus, who witnessed the miracles first hand and was given insider information on the parables Jesus told to the multitudes.

My knowledge is unassailable. I would, however, be the first to recant publicly in the most cowardly fashion, I am sure, if someone offered to put me on a cross and drive spikes through my hands

And Jesus tells us that “whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it” (Mark 8:35). This isn’t meant to be an insult in anyway, but if you truly (and I mean, truly) believed in the veracity of Jesus’ claims, you would be prepared to martyred for it (if the situation reaches that point). This is because you would know that this world isn’t the only thing there is, and there is a much greater world that awaits you with much greater prospects. Many Christians however aren’t prepared to be martyred for their beliefs because they don’t have 100% faith - the same faith that Abraham was commended by Scripture as having. Which is okay and acceptable. Even Peter lacked faith and look at where he is today. I’m just putting it into context that this part of your post shows you don’t have dying faith. Therefore, you really can’t make bold assertions like the one in your post.

I also am less than delighted with you trying to lecture me personally instead of simply expressing your own opinions about your own faith, please refrain from such in future. If you believe you can become an atheist someday, well …

JRKH isn’t saying he will become an atheist in the future. Bob Crowley isn’t saying the faithful can say they will become atheist in the future. Read their posts in it their proper context. What they are saying is that you can hope with God’s grace, that you will not become an atheist. But you can’t say definitively that you will not - that reeks of pride and makes an implicit assumption that you “own faith”. As Church teaching makes clear, faith is a gift from God (theological virtue). It’s not something you can lay a claim on. The fact that you can’t show any biblical verses or teachings from the Church to back up your claims just indicates to me the paucity of what you are claiming. To which I quote again,

“Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”” (James 4:14-15).

 

[Julia_Mae]

JRKH essentially hit the nail on the head, so I don’t believe it is necessary to repeat what is obviously a great post. I also don’t know what being an atheist has to do with this thread at all.

You made a judgement about a person based on their statement of belief in God and what they, as a person of faith, thought of other persons of faith. Your judgement carries no weight as you have nothing whatsoever to base such judgement on by your own self-identification.

You used to be a Mason

LOL! No, I was never a Mason. You might try Googling them and learning something about what that is.

This isn’t meant to be an insult in anyway, but if you truly (and I mean, truly) believed in the veracity of Jesus’ claims, you would be prepared to martyred for it (if the situation reaches that point).

I would be delighted to be martyred for Christ. I invite you to shoot me in the head in rejection of His Name at any time you wish. I know that life is eternal, beyond any possibility of doubt. Doesn’t alter the fact that I don’t want to be tortured. Your assessment of how someone who knows God and Eternity would feel or react is, well, worthless, actually. Which is also not meant as an insult but just a statement of fact.

JRKH isn’t saying…

Not only do I think you don’t need anyone to defend you, I’m pretty sure other posters here can express their own thoughts about their own posts.

Now, whether you want to accept it or not, many people know there is God. Many people know there is afterlife. None of us are afraid of passing. We’d all rather avoid the suffering portion of the program.

An atheist giving opinions on spiritual matters is like me giving a description of what it’s like to walk on the moon. So I think we’ve covered our difference in opinion and fact. Take care.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m pretty sure I’d be Orthodox if I wasn’t Catholic.

 

[PiousTemplar]

I don’t like these questions, they are intruding on God’s Will.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Sure we can. I do.

With all due respect, I quoted a lady above who, as far as I know, lost her faith.

Yet when she was still a practising Christian, I’ll guarantee that at no time did she think she would lose it.

 

[divinefaith]

I doubt I would be Catholic.
If I was Muslim I would fear conversion considering their belief that converts would go to hell. If I was Orthodox, I would already believe I have the right side of the story, in terms of which Church was the first.
Why would I risk conversion in either case?
That’s why I understand why many people won’t convert to be Catholic. The same way we’re taught to avoid heretical beliefs, other religions would be taught the same.

 

[JRKH]

I’m entirely calm, I assure you. I also understand perfectly why Bohm agrees. What he did was make an assessment of character based on statement about faith. I simply asked him what he’d know about faith as he’s an atheist. He’s also a grown-up with plenty of forum chops who doesn’t need anyone else to defend him.

Fair enough.

No, he didn’t. He said He wouldn’t deny. Do you think at any time when Peter was denying Jesus he doubted Jesus was Who Peter knew He was? He knew what he knew. He just didn’t want to be crucified.

Let us not forget that Jesus said, "32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Mt 10:32-33)

My knowledge is unassailable. I would, however, be the first to recant publicly in the most cowardly fashion, I am sure, if someone offered to put me on a cross and drive spikes through my hands.

I appreciate your candor above. While I would hope that I would not recant I fear that, like you, I would not have the strength.
But having said that, it is important to recognize that knowledge does not save. In addition to what Jesus said above, just a few verse later He says, “He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Mt 10:39)

That cannot change the knowledge of God and Christ that I have. As I said, there’s a tree. And nothing can make there not be a tree.

The tree may remain but if we deny the tree can we expect to shelter in it’s shade?

God is more real than the keyboard I type on. I do not “believe.” I did not “decide” or “choose” or read anything or become convinced.

And yet you willingly admit that you would quickly deny that which you believe…in order to avoid the very cross we are called to…

I also am less than delighted with you trying to lecture me personally instead of simply expressing your own opinions about your own faith, please refrain from such in future. If you believe you can become an atheist someday, well …

I apologize if my response comes across as condescending. I do not mean it to be so. I truly appreciate you honesty in this matter. In fact it forces me to examine my own considerable weakness in such matters.
Likewise, while my response is indeed to the views that you personally expressed, they ARE expressions of my own faith.

Like you I do not believe that I could ever become atheist. But I will not presume on my own strength or my knowledge of the future. I have my hands full living the Gospel today.

Peace
James