Illegal immigrants lead criminal lifestyle

[Fremont]

Intentional adoption of a criminal lifestyle is not the behavior we would expect from desirable residents of the USA.

Some contributors to this forum seem to be uncomfortable calling illegal immigrants criminals and labeling their conduct as criminal behavior. OK, for this post I will try to refer to unlawful behavior. Criminal behavior or unlawful behavior, it means the same to me. Just as some people call it abortion and others call it women’s rights, that is the same to me too.

Illegal immigrants are guilty of many forms of unlawful behavior.

It is illegal to enter the US without permission. To do so is unlawful behavior.

It is certainly not illegal to work at a job, but it is against the law for an illegal immigrant to work at a job in the US. To do so is unlawful behavior.

Lying, cheating and stealing are immoral behavior and also many times are illegal behavior.

It is illegal to lie about your eligibility to work on the I-9 form that is required of all workers regardless of status. It is illegal to present false credentials to an employer. The I-9 warns the applicant/employee and states federal law provides for penalties of imprisonment and/or fines for presenting false documents. It also says right on the form that the penalty of perjury applies if you lie about your status.

These are not trivial infractions. They are serious offenses against the law with major penalties for the guilty.

To deliberately attest in a written legal document with your signature as confirmation to the truth of the information while knowing the statements to be false is not a minor fib. It is an intentional and malicious lie. It is immoral and wrong as well as unlawful behavior.

The Church teaches it is wrong use immoral means to seek any ends, no matter how desirable those ends might appear in the eyes of the seeker. Illegal immigrants are guilty of such conduct when they use intentional and malicious lies to seek or retain a job.

Other examples of wrongful acts are:

It is illegal to use someone else’s social security card or number. To do so is unlawful behavior.

It is illegal to drive a vehicle without a valid drivers license. To do so is unlawful behavior.

It is illegal to not pay self-employment taxes and required income taxes. To do so is unlawful behavior.

The list can go on and on and all such behavior is wrong.

All of these examples demonstrate the voluntary and ongoing unlawful, many times immoral, lifestyle adopted by illegal immigrants, and I have no qualms about calling it a criminal lifestyle

Here is a link to more information about illegal immigrants and crime titled “Illegal Immigration is a Crime”.

fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters6ce3

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I doubt it. I don’t doubt it’s illegal (abortion, however, IS legal, so “illegal” doesn’t carry such a sinister ring as it might), but I doubt I would go so far as to call it a criminal lifestyle. Sounds to me like a dramatic rhetorical flourish, for which I have little patience.

Illegal? Certainly. We need to do something to protect our borders and that may well mean building a fence (I hope not, but it might mean that). We have a right to protect our borders and we have a duty to do so for the sake of our children. But it doesn’t do, ever, to wantonly villify anyone, particularly a whole group of people. As teacher in a barrio school, I assume that I have children who are in my class that have parents who are illegally here. If the children weren’t born here, they’re here illegally, too (I don’t ask and I won’t ask. It’s my job to teach them and care for them while they’re in my room). The overwhelming majority of these people are taking jobs, here in Las Vegas at least, that white people don’t want, ie., construction, landscaping, cooking, maids, porters, etc. The overwhelming majority are good, hard-working, Catholic people, who love their children and simply want a better life for them. They’re devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe and She’s all over their homes, their yards, their trucks, their T-shirts. Saint Christopher’s Church down the street takes in a huge offering every week and supports an excellent Catholic school, the population of which is almost entirely Hispanic, most of whom came illegally, either recently or before the last amnesty. They lavish love on their children and those children are far more well behaved and respectful than any other ethnic group I’ve ever taught. And they treat teachers with respect, something that this country fails regularly to do.

Criminal lifestyle? No. Far, FAR too broad a brush. We may have to arrive at a place where these good people have to leave, for our children’s security and future. Maybe we can let them back in, legally and in a controlled way. But they aren’t, by and large, criminals.

 

[mommyof4]

Preach it, JKirkLVNV!

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I heard that when Fremont’s ancestors arrived and begin to take land which was an illegal action, so the Indian chiefs had many meeting with the ancestors to ask them to stop their illegal actions but the ancestors ignored the chefs and continued to break the law. At times the ancestors even killed the Indians. So I think the problem is Fremont’s insistence he continue to profit from the illegal and immoral actions of his ancestors.

These are just my thoughts

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I heard that when Fremont’s ancestors arrived and begin to take land which was an illegal action, so the Indian chiefs had many meeting with the ancestors to ask them to stop their illegal actions but the ancestors ignored the chefs and continued to break the law. At times the ancestors even killed the Indians. So I think the problem is Fremont’s insistence he continue to profit from the illegal and immoral actions of his ancestors.

These are just my thoughts

Which is why I usually keep my pie-hole shut, as MY people helped rip Texas away from the Mexcian government (my great-great-great-great grandfather fought under Sam Houston at the Battle of San Jacinto and served in the government of the Republic of Texas, which under Sam’s arch-rival, President Mirabeau B. Lamar, pursued a policy of “extermination or expulsion” of the Native Americans in the Republic. My folks have been a part of the oppressor class all the way back to William the Conqueror!!! I’m one of those who continues to profit!!!). I just don’t like to see folks paint other folks with, as I said, too broad a brush.

 

[Fremont]

I heard that when Fremont’s ancestors arrived and begin to take land which was an illegal action, so the Indian chiefs had many meeting with the ancestors to ask them to stop their illegal actions but the ancestors ignored the chefs and continued to break the law. At times the ancestors even killed the Indians. So I think the problem is Fremont’s insistence he continue to profit from the illegal and immoral actions of his ancestors.

These are just my thoughts

You may well be right. I really don’t know.

But I do not think any of us want to go back to the way it was in the 16th century, or the 17th or the 18th or even the 19th.

Modern US society has brought the strongest economy and the finest health system in the world to all who live here. And we all profit from that to some extent.

And over the past several years many of the Indians, or Native Americans, have enjoyed a tremendous improvement in their life style due to the gambling casinos installed at their behest. Further the Native Americans in Alaska have long enjoyed much profit every year from shares of the oil revenues. None of that would be possible without our modern economy.

We may all regret the bumps in the road caused by our ancestors as our country grew and expanded. But the vast majority of residents in the US are healthier and live a much longer natural life than the Indians of our colonial and expansion periods.

Spiritually as well. In addition to the bad things the message of Christ was also presented in various ways and missionary works continue to this day. The early missionaries may not have conducted their methods in a way we consider appropriate today but I choose to believe the Church has a message well beyond pagan religions.

 

[mommyof4]

And over the past several years many of the Indians, or Native Americans, have enjoyed a tremendous improvement in their life style due to the gambling casinos installed at their behest. Further the Native Americans in Alaska have long enjoyed much profit every year from shares of the oil revenues. None of that would be possible without our modern economy.

I’m just curious. Have you ever been on a reservation? Have you seen the abject poverty on these places? Have you seen the shacks that they live in? And yes, I do mean shacks. If you haven’t, I suggest you visit one. I don’t know where you live, but if in the midwest I would suggest the Macy res, Winnebago res, or any of the reservations in South Dakota. I also know that there are other posters here who could make a few other suggestions as to which reservations to go to.

 

[Julianna]

My grandparents came to this country in 1912 grandfather was an apprentice, he had to have a SPONSOR. He worked for 5 years, PAID passage for his fiancee, my grandmother to come to the US. She was 17 yrs old, spoke no english and had all her possessions in one trunk (that sits at the foot of my daughters bed). There was no welfare, the stores didn’t label the aisles in the store, or the hardware store, in Italian. YOU HAD TO LEARN ENGLISH. There were no free classes, with free transportation to the classes, and free child care while you attended the classes to learn english. At any time, my grandparents could received UNANNOUNCED visits, and if they were NOT WORKING under their sponsor…they would be sent back. My grandfather supported 7 kids by shining shoes at the train station, and my grandmother scrubbed the stepped of brownstone buildings. There was no going to the hospital…my dad and his siblings were all born at home. In school, my dad and his siblings were taught english…and they in turn taught it to my grandparents. They kept the Italian CULTURE alive, but learned ENGLISH and became Americans LEGALLY. It was an honor to be called an AMERICAN. I did find my grandfathers signature on a ship roster headed for Ellis Island. It wasn’t Carnival Cruises either. Just below his signature, was the name, address of his sponsor. When my grandmother came, her sponsor signed for her. How hard is that? It is a process…go through the process. Boat loads of immigrants had to be processed, and they were watched to make sure they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Yeah, I can say something about this…because if my grandparents had to enter this country the right way…so does everyone else.

My hubby’s great grandparents came from Ireland…I don’t need to tell you what happened to them…history took care of that. But despite their hardships being in this country, they made it through…without welfare. Now do you understand why…generations later, people are ticked off? Because they know the history.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

You may well be right. I really don’t know.

But I do not think any of us want to go back to the way it was in the 16th century, or the 17th or the 18th or even the 19th.

Modern US society has brought the strongest economy and the finest health system in the world to all who live here. And we all profit from that to some extent.

And over the past several years many of the Indians, or Native Americans, have enjoyed a tremendous improvement in their life style due to the gambling casinos installed at their behest. Further the Native Americans in Alaska have long enjoyed much profit every year from shares of the oil revenues. None of that would be possible without our modern economy.

**We may all regret the bumps in the road **caused by our ancestors as our country grew and expanded. But the vast majority of residents in the US are healthier and live a much longer natural life than the Indians of our colonial and expansion periods.

Spiritually as well. In addition to the bad things the message of Christ was also presented in various ways and missionary works continue to this day. The early missionaries may not have conducted their methods in a way we consider appropriate today but I choose to believe the Church has a message well beyond pagan religions.

Are you saying when your side is immoral the term “bump in the road” should be used but if their side does similar the word “crime” should be used. Wow, I know some words used to describe that logic- but choice not to say them.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m just curious. Have you ever been on a reservation? Have you seen the abject poverty on these places? Have you seen the shacks that they live in? And yes, I do mean shacks. If you haven’t, I suggest you visit one. I don’t know where you live, but if in the midwest I would suggest the Macy res, Winnebago res, or any of the reservations in South Dakota. I also know that there are other posters here who could make a few other suggestions as to which reservations to go to.

Go, Mommy! I taught for 11 years on the Navajo reservation, one of the most impoverished places on the face of the earth. Blessed Teresa of Calcutta visited and established a group of her nuns there, and Saint Katherine Drexel founded a school, among other things. They’re so poor God sent them saints!

 

[mommyof4]

Go, Mommy! I taught for 11 years on the Navajo reservation, one of the most impoverished places on the face of the earth. Blessed Teresa of Calcutta visited and established a group of her nuns there, and Saint Katherine Drexel founded a school, among other things. They’re so poor God sent them saints!

JKirkLVNV, I have only heard about the Navajo reservation, but I have never gotten to go there. I have visited the Macy and Winnebago reservations in Nebraska, & the reservations in SD. My husband taught on one of the reservations for a year. I really don’t know how to describe these places unless you have been there. The only thing I can say is that we have people living in terrible third world conditions in the midst of first world affluence. It’s really sad. I really don’t know the cure for it, either. Maybe more saints??

 

[Texas_Roofer]

My grandparents came to this country in 1912 grandfather was an apprentice, he had to have a SPONSOR. He worked for 5 years, PAID passage for his fiancee, my grandmother to come to the US. She was 17 yrs old, spoke no english and had all her possessions in one trunk (that sits at the foot of my daughters bed). There was no welfare, the stores didn’t label the aisles in the store, or the hardware store, in Italian. YOU HAD TO LEARN ENGLISH. There were no free classes, with free transportation to the classes, and free child care while you attended the classes to learn english. At any time, my grandparents could received UNANNOUNCED visits, and if they were NOT WORKING under their sponsor…they would be sent back. My grandfather supported 7 kids by shining shoes at the train station, and my grandmother scrubbed the stepped of brownstone buildings. There was no going to the hospital…my dad and his siblings were all born at home. In school, my dad and his siblings were taught english…and they in turn taught it to my grandparents. They kept the Italian CULTURE alive, but learned ENGLISH and became Americans LEGALLY. It was an honor to be called an AMERICAN. I did find my grandfathers signature on a ship roster headed for Ellis Island. It wasn’t Carnival Cruises either. Just below his signature, was the name, address of his sponsor. When my grandmother came, her sponsor signed for her. How hard is that? It is a process…go through the process. Boat loads of immigrants had to be processed, and they were watched to make sure they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Yeah, I can say something about this…because if my grandparents had to enter this country the right way…so does everyone else.

My hubby’s great grandparents came from Ireland…I don’t need to tell you what happened to them…history took care of that. But despite their hardships being in this country, they made it through…without welfare. Now do you understand why…generations later, people are ticked off? Because they know the history.

I am struggling to understand you. If a Mexican does this today is he a good American like you or is he a criminal? I do not know the particulars of your Grandparents case but I know in the vast majority of cases the immigrant is not a U.S. Citizen until quite some time after they arrive. I also know in most cases immigrants arrive without pre-approval to enter. I suspect your family is familiar with the term “WOP”.

 

[Julianna]

*I am struggling to understand you. If a Mexican does this today is he a good American like you or is he a criminal? I do not know the particulars of your Grandparents case but I know in the vast majority of cases the immigrant is not a U.S. Citizen until quite some time after they arrive. I also know in most cases immigrants arrive without pre-approval to enter. I suspect your family is familiar with the term “WOP”.
*

What is there to understand? If a Mexican comes to this country, has a sponsor, works at job, and becomes a citizen…great, wonderful, welcome! Yes, my grandparents could not come unless they had a sponsor and a job. My grandparents HAD pre-approval…hence the SPONSOR and a JOB. Yes, I am familiar with the term WOP…and DAGO as well. What is your point? And what does it have to do with this topic?

If anyone wants to come to this country, they should do it LEGALLY…my grandparents did, and so should everyone else. And the language spoken in this country is ENGLISH.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… Yes, I am familiar with the term WOP…and DAGO as well. What is your point? And what does it have to do with this topic?..

I just thought it odd you discussed Italians in this way, let me have someone else write it -

Wop
(U.S. & UK Commonwealth) an Italian (sometimes any Southern European), especially an immigrant; probably originated in the U.S., but later spread to other countries. Probably derives from the Neapolitan slang term guappo! (pretty/handsome one), often used by the first immigrants from Italy to address or call to each other. Popular etymology gives the origin as “WithOut Passport”, although some believe the acronym derived from “WithOut Papers” or “Without Official Papers”, suggesting illegal immigration. This folk etymology sometimes combines the term with “guinea” to form “Giny Wop,” with Giny being an acronym for Going Into New York, hence “Going Into New York Without Official Papers”. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop

It is just interesting to me you would know such a term as “Wop” if only legal immigration was our history. DAGO is not related to this subject as far as I know

 

[Julianna]

I just thought it odd you discussed Italians in this way, let me have someone else write it -

Wop
(U.S. & UK Commonwealth) an Italian (sometimes any Southern European), especially an immigrant; probably originated in the U.S., but later spread to other countries. Probably derives from the Neapolitan slang term guappo! (pretty/handsome one), often used by the first immigrants from Italy to address or call to each other. Popular etymology gives the origin as “WithOut Passport”, although some believe the acronym derived from “WithOut Papers” or “Without Official Papers”, suggesting illegal immigration. This folk etymology sometimes combines the term with “guinea” to form “Giny Wop,” with Giny being an acronym for Going Into New York, hence “Going Into New York Without Official Papers”. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop

It is just interesting to me you would know such a term as “Wop” if only legal immigration was our history. DAGO is not related to this subject as far as I know

My grandparents had their OFFICIAL PAPERS…faghettaboutit…ok? that is my point…

 

[Ituyu]

My grandparents had their OFFICIAL PAPERS…faghettaboutit…ok? that is my point…

So what! So did everybody else’s grandparents. It’s only been since about 1965 that it’s been an issue that has had any real enforcement behind it. And, I hardly think that it’s a coincidence that the law is basically aimed at this current wave of immigration. The laws have been aimed against Catholics, Japanese and Chinese to name a few . It’s particulary perverse that the indigenous are made foreigners on their former land and now even “illegal”. Basically we can do no wrong as they are the “illegal” and we are the legal even if we break the laws. Up until 1986 it was LEGAL to hire all “illegals”. And, in reality it hasn’t change much since then.

 

[Ituyu]

Fremont,

For one that expouses the high road about moral teachings why is it you can outright misinform with untruths? You know full well that a Civl procedure is not a “Criminal” one because there is no crime. Suit yourself but you just seem to betray your ulterior motives.

 

[Julianna]

So what! So did everybody else’s grandparents. It’s only been since about 1965 that it’s been an issue that has had any real enforcement behind it. And, I hardly think that it’s a coincidence that the law is basically aimed at this current wave of immigration. The laws have been aimed against Catholics, Japanese and Chinese to name a few . It’s particulary perverse that the indigenous are made foreigners on their former land and now even “illegal”. Basically we can do no wrong as they are the “illegal” and we are the legal even if we break the laws. Up until 1986 it was LEGAL to hire all “illegals”. And, in reality it hasn’t change much since then.

I was letting another poster know that my grandparents came here legally.

As for "the indigenous are made foreigners on their former land and now even “illegal”…note the word former. Who the land belongs to was decided way before this debate…move forward to the here and now.

There is no conspiracy against this new wave of immigrants. Immigrants are WELCOME…it is the “illegal” that are breaking the law. If we break the law, we go to jail and receive just punishment for the crime. Coming to this country illegally, gets one “deported”. Hiring illegals, a contractor faces fines. That is the law. Why is that so hard to understand? Contractors are knowinly hiring illegals and are working on our military bases…very dangerous practice indeed. Any contractor that works for the state and or fed that hires illegals should be banned from any further work for the state and fed, period. That will send a message loud and clear.

It is amazing to me that someone who is illegal can to a US hospital, have a child, and walk out without paying a dime, and then disappear into the woodwork. I am paying bucket load premiums for health insurance with co-pays that are going up everyday. My mother is 77 yrs. old, and on SS. She can afford to buy a pair of glasses. She was a SAHM and saw to it that we went to church and followed the sacraments even though she was not catholic. And what is her thanks for that? $300.00 a month…whoopeee do.

If I don’t pay my bills, my credit is ruined. I can’t buy a home, a car, or get credit for anything. But if I come here illegally, I get it handed to me. I don’t have open a bank account, (bank accounts are traceable), I can get a driver’s license by showing a fake ID. NC requires auto insurance for every licensed driver. I can get around that by paying one installment, go to the DMV, get a driver’s license (and I don’t have to speak english to do it, (and I can REQUIRE employees at the DMV to speak my language), then after I leave with my new driver’s license, I don’t pay anymore on the insurance. I give a fake address…I don’t pay ANY taxes on anything. I don’t have to go the FREE ESL classes, that offer free transport to and from the community college, and offer FREE child care while I am taking the classes, but what is the point in learning ENGLISH, if stores like WallyWorld, Lowes, and Mickey D’s are going post everything in my language? Why bother…what a waste of US state and federal dollars. I have a friend who used to live in southern Florida. She could not get a job ANYWHERE unless she was bi-lingual? What is up with that? And before long, all points north of Florida will have the same requirement.

Why in the world should I have to PRESS “1” for ENGLISH? Or press the ENGLISH button before I swipe my card at the store? Or listen to the daily specials at the meat counter in another language over the PA system in the grocery store?

My grandparents had to learn english to survive, and so does everyone else. I would never go to another country and tell them that I want to be catered to because I am an American. I would be told to get lost real fast.

There is something to be said for leaning too far to the left…you may just tip over and be trampled under the weight of extremism…same goes for the right. (Just in case you thought I was a staunch conservative)

 

[Fremont]

I doubt it. I don’t doubt it’s illegal (abortion, however, IS legal, so “illegal” doesn’t carry such a sinister ring as it might), but I doubt I would go so far as to call it a criminal lifestyle. Sounds to me like a dramatic rhetorical flourish, for which I have little patience.

Illegal? Certainly. We need to do something to protect our borders and that may well mean building a fence (I hope not, but it might mean that). We have a right to protect our borders and we have a duty to do so for the sake of our children. But it doesn’t do, ever, to wantonly villify anyone, particularly a whole group of people. As teacher in a barrio school, I assume that I have children who are in my class that have parents who are illegally here. If the children weren’t born here, they’re here illegally, too (I don’t ask and I won’t ask. It’s my job to teach them and care for them while they’re in my room). The overwhelming majority of these people are taking jobs, here in Las Vegas at least, that white people don’t want, ie., construction, landscaping, cooking, maids, porters, etc. The overwhelming majority are good, hard-working, Catholic people, who love their children and simply want a better life for them. They’re devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe and She’s all over their homes, their yards, their trucks, their T-shirts. Saint Christopher’s Church down the street takes in a huge offering every week and supports an excellent Catholic school, the population of which is almost entirely Hispanic, most of whom came illegally, either recently or before the last amnesty. They lavish love on their children and those children are far more well behaved and respectful than any other ethnic group I’ve ever taught. And they treat teachers with respect, something that this country fails regularly to do.

Criminal lifestyle? No. Far, FAR too broad a brush. We may have to arrive at a place where these good people have to leave, for our children’s security and future. Maybe we can let them back in, legally and in a controlled way. But they aren’t, by and large, criminals.

Your post shows a very nice picture of illegal immigrants. That view needs to be presented and I, for one, am glad you made it.

There is a darker side though.

A member posted information in another thread, referenced below.

In part of the post Ridgerunner states, “I do work for a company that has decent wages and a very good health insurance plan. It is rare to find an “Anglo” who does not carry the group health and the disability insurance. It is rare to find a Hispanic doing the same job at the same wage who carries either. It does cost money to have the benefits, but it’s not out of reach at all.”

He goes on to say he has observed several cases where several Hispanics join together and one will sign up for the medical coverage and then all share the same insurance card.

From a legal point this is a conspiracy to defraud the insurance company and thus unlawful. From a moral point I believe it is lying and cheating and thus immoral. From a medical point of view it inhibits proper treatment and jeopardizes physical heath.

When many individuals of different ages and different physical conditions all claim to be the same person it is impossible to have an accurate medical history. The doctors cannot properly diagnose the patient or administer good quality treatment. Medications suitable for one person could be harmful to another. Another example might be immunizations. The doctors cannot provide the same shots to the same person multiple times. When one individual gets a flu shot the others cannot. When one child gets a polio vaccine and/or other immunizations the other child pretenders cannot. When several claim to be the same person how can the doctor do their job?

Like you the doctors don’t ask and won’t ask about legal status, and as you just wish to teach they just want to practice medicine but must follow the medical records – even if the record is a combination of many people. In my opinion this is not a good situation.

It would be nice if the rosy picture you explained were the whole picture but it is not. Matters are much more complex.

Reference:
Thread: Torn on this issue
Post # 102

 

[Fremont]

I’m just curious. Have you ever been on a reservation? Have you seen the abject poverty on these places? Have you seen the shacks that they live in? And yes, I do mean shacks. If you haven’t, I suggest you visit one. I don’t know where you live, but if in the midwest I would suggest the Macy res, Winnebago res, or any of the reservations in South Dakota. I also know that there are other posters here who could make a few other suggestions as to which reservations to go to.

I have indeed been to some Indian reservations. I have to admit I have not seen the deprived conditions you describe but I have heard of them.

I have also worked with several people of Native American ancestry. In my experience they have been bright, courteous and have a good attitude. They have told me that the suffering is real but there are choices – and they are examples of those choices.

I do not mean to trivialize their plight because I am sure it is real. But, all Native Americans are citizens of the US with the same rights as you and me. They are free to pursue a different lifestyle.

My colleagues told me that it is difficult for many to leave the reservation and seek education and jobs. Not physically but culturally. They have strong family ties and respect their parents and other relatives. If they are pressured to stay for reasons such as to protect their culture it is not easy to walk away. More progressive parents urge and support their children to advance in education and participation in the modern lifestyle.

Unfortunately this situation has been going on for over a century and not enough Native Americans have stepped out into the modern world. I am not sure what we can do about it but blaming their plight solely on the “ugly American” and the Indian wars of the 19th century is not going to help.

Plus I stand by my statement that thousands and thousands of Native Americans have benefited considerably from the Indian casinos and natural resource revenues. Those fortunates do not live in decrepit poverty conditions.