Illness may be a forerunner of an individual's conversion - Fulton Sheen

[CaptFun]

This quote from the late (Blessed) Fulton Sheen gave me a lot of peace during my late parents’ last days. In some ways they became like little angels again. Simple. Helpless as babies. Almost reduced to just love in their last days.

I thought of posting this on the thread that examined “the problem of evil” or adding it as an insight on threads tracking the health problems of some prominent people who are ill - but opted instead to let it be a thread on its own.

“Illness especially, may be a blessed forerunner of the individual’s conversion.

Not only does it prevent him from realizing his desires; it even reduces his capacity for sin, his opportunities for vice.

In that enforced detachment from evil, which is a Mercy of God, he has time to search himself, to appraise his life, to interpret it in terms of larger reality.

He considers God, and, at that moment, there is a sense of duality, a confronting of personality with Divinity, a comparison of the facts of his life with the ideal from which he fell.

The soul is forced to look inside itself, to inquire whether there is more peace in this suffering than in sinning. Once a sick man, in his passivity, begins to ask, “What is the purpose of my life? Why am I here?” the crisis has already begun.

Conversion becomes possible the very moment a man ceases to blame God or life and begins to blame himself; by doing so, he becomes able to distinguish between his sinful barnacles and the ship of his soul.

A crack has appeared in the armor of his egotism; now the sunlight of God’s grace can pour in. But until that happens, catastrophes can teach us nothing but despair.”

I found this insightful and profound. Though I do not relish the thought of illness in MY future. Your thoughts?

 

[InJesusItrust]

Insightful and wise. As one with an incurable, progressive illness this is precisely what happened to me. So much grief and sorrow that I began to wonder why bother living. I realized the importance of knowing the purpose of life and sought God. People who avoid that question are content with vanity.

 

[Sair]

Two questions - what of those who are already devout who are struck by profound illness? I think particularly of my mother, who has been a committed Catholic all her life, who now has been afflicted with dementia. My father, who cares for her at present, is also a lifelong Catholic. What of them?

Secondly, by reducing the capacity and opportunity to sin, is not illness interfering with a person’s much-vaunted ‘free will’?

 

[Glacies]

The spiritual conversion of St. Ignatius of Loyola was preceded by a cannonball injury to one of his legs during a battle against the French so God surely can start to call a person towards Himself through circumstances which at first seem unfavorable. “For God is the judge. One he puts down, and another he lifts up.” (Ps. 74:8). As God in His Providence and Omniscience knows the causes and effects of all things better than we do it is a question of humility for us to always trust in Him.

Two questions - what of those who are already devout who are struck by profound illness? I think particularly of my mother, who has been a committed Catholic all her life, who now has been afflicted with dementia. My father, who cares for her at present, is also a lifelong Catholic. What of them?

It is permissible to seek help from in other people and God in excessive troubles while our ultimate goal is to do the will of Him who knows the best what is good for us and for others. It can be hard for us to see if some small incident today would cause some profoundly good effect after ten years yet God knows for certain whether this is the case or not. God knows the past, the present and the future, even all the free choices we will make (Vatican I, Session 3, Chapter 1, 4.). St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains about conforming to illnesses as follows in his Uniformity with God’s Will:

“St. John of Avila once wrote to a sick priest: “My dear friend,—Do not weary yourself planning what you would do if you were well, but be content to be sick for as long as God wishes. If you are seeking to carry out God’s will, what difference should it make to you whether you are sick or well?” The saint was perfectly right, for God is glorified not by our works, but by our resignation to, and by our union with, his holy will. In this respect St. Francis de Sales used to say we serve God better by our sufferings than by our actions.”

Secondly, by reducing the capacity and opportunity to sin, is not illness interfering with a person’s much-vaunted ‘free will’?

Such a situation limits the possibility of executing the free will rather than the will itself. One may wish to commit a sin one is not capable of performing while even desiring evil is a sin (S. th. I-II:71:6).

 

[Sair]

The spiritual conversion of St. Ignatius of Loyola was preceded by a cannonball injury to one of his legs during a battle against the French so God surely can start to call a person towards Himself through circumstances which at first seem unfavorable. “For God is the judge. One he puts down, and another he lifts up.” (Ps. 74:8). As God in His Providence and Omniscience knows the causes and effects of all things better than we do it is a question of humility for us to always trust in Him.

Trust is best furnished with evidence that the one in whom we place our trust is actually worthy of it.

It is permissible to seek help from in other people and God in excessive troubles while our ultimate goal is to do the will of Him who knows the best what is good for us and for others. It can be hard for us to see if some small incident today would cause some profoundly good effect after ten years yet God knows for certain whether this is the case or not. God knows the past, the present and the future, even all the free choices we will make

Illness is not a free choice, in general - even by those people who indulge in risky behaviours. This is not the case with my mother, I would point out - there are no well-known risk factors for this particular type of dementia. The primary (and entirely willing) port of call for help in this circumstance is me - not a Christian; to all intents and purposes, an atheist from any Christian perspective. Am I supposed to be converted, somehow, by God’s obvious ‘compassion’ for my Catholic parents?

The saint was perfectly right, for God is glorified not by our works, but by our resignation to, and by our union with, his holy will. In this respect St. Francis de Sales used to say we serve God better by our sufferings than by our actions."

Resignation is far easier to accomplish when one does not imagine that there is a sentient being who intended our suffering.

Such a situation limits the possibility of executing the free will rather than the will itself. One may wish to commit a sin one is not capable of performing while even desiring evil is a sin (S. th. I-II:71:6).

Surely, then, if this is so, there are other circumstances in which God could permit the free exercise of will without the negative consequences to innocents which might result from it. I once spent an afternoon in a respite care facility, reading to a very young girl who was suffering severe brain injury because her stepfather had thrown her against a wall, because he was irritated by her crying; could not God have cushioned the impact in order to prevent - or at least lessen - the damage, without preventing the man’s free exercise of his uncontrolled temper? I’m not sure that in such a circumstance, the man’s momentary ability to exercise free will was more valuable than the little girl’s quality of life - for the rest of her life, however long it lasts.

 

[Carolus_Martell]

Like CaptFun I’m not looking forward to being ill either.

But to those that are ill are you aware that you can “offer up your pain and suffering” as a reparation to God? The Church has made this so and it’s a real big deal if someone you love has a terminal illness and you’re worried about their eternal salvation.

I’m a little weak on the details so those that may be interested will have to search it up here.

 

[Glacies]

Trust is best furnished with evidence that the one in whom we place our trust is actually worthy of it.

Illness is not a free choice, in general - even by those people who indulge in risky behaviours. This is not the case with my mother, I would point out - there are no well-known risk factors for this particular type of dementia. The primary (and entirely willing) port of call for help in this circumstance is me - not a Christian; to all intents and purposes, an atheist from any Christian perspective. Am I supposed to be converted, somehow, by God’s obvious ‘compassion’ for my Catholic parents?

Resignation is far easier to accomplish when one does not imagine that there is a sentient being who intended our suffering.

Surely, then, if this is so, there are other circumstances in which God could permit the free exercise of will without the negative consequences to innocents which might result from it. I once spent an afternoon in a respite care facility, reading to a very young girl who was suffering severe brain injury because her stepfather had thrown her against a wall, because he was irritated by her crying; could not God have cushioned the impact in order to prevent - or at least lessen - the damage, without preventing the man’s free exercise of his uncontrolled temper? I’m not sure that in such a circumstance, the man’s momentary ability to exercise free will was more valuable than the little girl’s quality of life - for the rest of her life, however long it lasts.

I see the answer to these arguments going back to the point presented before: It is a question of trust in that God is ultimately in charge for our good even in things which seem difficult. “And we know that to them that love God all things work together unto good: to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.” (Rom. 8:28) We can learn to trust in God by giving Him the chance, as His promises are good and the effects are wonderful in those people who have embraced Him throughout the centuries. The ideal is to choose the best choice in every situation and that best choice is God. In the end we may learn to trust Him so much that we can declare contently with St. Paul the Apostle: “I know whom I have believed.” (2. Tim. 1:12)

 

[hsmomforlife]

Two questions - what of those who are already devout who are struck by profound illness? I think particularly of my mother, who has been a committed Catholic all her life, who now has been afflicted with dementia. My father, who cares for her at present, is also a lifelong Catholic. What of them?

Secondly, by reducing the capacity and opportunity to sin, is not illness interfering with a person’s much-vaunted ‘free will’?

When reading the quote from Fulton Sheen, I couldn’t help but think how it applied to caregivers as well, especially to a parent of a chronically/seriously ill young child.

Maybe it can be applied when the caregiver is the child, depending on the situation….

 

[Sair]

I see the answer to these arguments going back to the point presented before: It is a question of trust in that God is ultimately in charge for our good even in things which seem difficult. “And we know that to them that love God all things work together unto good: to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.” (Rom. 8:28) We can learn to trust in God by giving Him the chance, as His promises are good and the effects are wonderful in those people who have embraced Him throughout the centuries. The ideal is to choose the best choice in every situation and that best choice is God. In the end we may learn to trust Him so much that we can declare contently with St. Paul the Apostle: “I know whom I have believed.” (2. Tim. 1:12)

Apologies if I sound cynical, but that’s pretty much the non-answer I expected.

The short version is that people have to rely on faith, because we just won’t see any real, tangible effects of divine intervention, whether or not we pray or endeavour to lead exemplary lives - both of which, I should point out, my parents have done. I know what I can do to help them here and now, in my limited capacity, but I’m certainly not holding my breath that God will step in and ease their suffering…

 

[centurionguard]

This quote from the late (Blessed) Fulton Sheen gave me a lot of peace during my late parents’ last days. In some ways they became like little angels again. Simple. Helpless as babies. Almost reduced to just love in their last days.

I thought of posting this on the thread that examined “the problem of evil” or adding it as an insight on threads tracking the health problems of some prominent people who are ill - but opted instead to let it be a thread on its own.

“Illness especially, may be a blessed forerunner of the individual’s conversion.

Profoundly thought provoking. Penned coming from the late and prolific writer Blessed Archbishop Sheen it deserves meditative soul searching.

I think your fear of illness like all of us is what defines our humanity and our soul searching experiences.
Thank You for posting this.

Peace
Chris

 

[wanabesaint]

wow is interesting, thought provoking.
Trust but, Faith in God, and that Gods will be done.

and for, Honor your Father and Mother, in good times and bad, in sickness and health, and forever and ever. Its a union the same as the sacrament of Marriage.

Faith in God, and in God alone, to come to have Faith in Gods will, not our desires and wishes, in all matters. The greatest gift from God is life, from the aged barely functioning elderly to the unborn child, and You, all are the greatest gift from God.

 

[hsmomforlife]

Trust is best furnished with evidence that the one in whom we place our trust is actually worthy of it.

Illness is not a free choice, in general - even by those people who indulge in risky behaviours. This is not the case with my mother, I would point out - there are no well-known risk factors for this particular type of dementia. The primary (and entirely willing) port of call for help in this circumstance is me - not a Christian; to all intents and purposes, an atheist from any Christian perspective. Am I supposed to be converted, somehow, by God’s obvious ‘compassion’ for my Catholic parents?

Resignation is far easier to accomplish when one does not imagine that there is a sentient being who intended our suffering.

Surely, then, if this is so, there are other circumstances in which God could permit the free exercise of will without the negative consequences to innocents which might result from it. I once spent an afternoon in a respite care facility, reading to a very young girl who was suffering severe brain injury because her stepfather had thrown her against a wall, because he was irritated by her crying; could not God have cushioned the impact in order to prevent - or at least lessen - the damage, without preventing the man’s free exercise of his uncontrolled temper? I’m not sure that in such a circumstance, the man’s momentary ability to exercise free will was more valuable than the little girl’s quality of life - for the rest of her life, however long it lasts.

Sometimes the suffering of one touches many…as in your example of the little girl.
Had my own daughter not spent 42 days in the PICU as a 4month old baby, with multiple medical issues, I would not have experienced all of the change that came with that. During that same period in the PICU, four children died (an accidental drowning, suffocation, reaction to anesthesia, a complex heart defect), two were healed in amazing ways (traumatic brain injury and sepsis). All six of those children and their families touched my heart and my faith in a very profound way. One in particular changed me forever. I am certain not one of those families know the way that God used their child’s illness and/or death to change my life and open my heart to Him and to give me faith and trust in Him in all matters.
My point is that you never know who will be changed by an illness, sometimes it’s the individual, but not always just them…and it’s not always known.
But that’s not what Bishop Sheen was talking about…

 

[wanabesaint]

Illness and death go hand in hand, for Life which God alone gives is himself.
Illiness challeges life , pulls us to God, for God is life, he alone gives life for God is life itself in all its wonder is the omniscient God.

The greatest gift from God, is God himself in the form of life.

Death is a passing of God, we cannnot comprehend, for it is God which is beyound our comprehension, but we do comprehend we cannot put anything in front of God, Life.

The greatest treasure of a civilization, is the Life of the People, Lives, or God in the form of Human life, of a civilization, the life and lives of the people, for a nation to put anything in front of the people, God, is a great sin on the nation, a defiance to , God.
No nation can come to alow anything to be put infront of the People, absolutely nothing, for that calls for a nation to act in defiance to, God, the people.

The individuality of the soul is recognized, but all life is equally important.

as a note of recognition, their is a great confussion to the dicounting of God, life, in the acceptance of the murder and mutilation of children in the US, which is murder of human life, the killling of what God alone gives, human life at that moment of conception, yet the bewilderment to death of parents, children or as the process of dying, that is some sort of failure or bad, not the recognition of appreciation for life, but some confussed not to be plan.
Suffering and death are natural parts of life, but not of this world do we treasure, but of the kingdom of God, to which we arenot worth of, but offer the sufferings and crosses of this world that we might be worthy of, eternal life.

 

[CaptFun]

Like CaptFun I’m not looking forward to being ill either.

But to those that are ill are you aware that you can “offer up your pain and suffering” as a reparation to God? The Church has made this so and it’s a real big deal if someone you love has a terminal illness and you’re worried about their eternal salvation.

I’m a little weak on the details so those that may be interested will have to search it up here.

Reminds me of the prophet Ezekiel who was told to lie on one side for 390 days and bear the sins of Israel. Then 40 more days for the sins of Judah.

As Christians, we follow Christ, who offered up His pain and suffering to redeem us all. A servant is not greater than his master.

“Offer it up” - the Dominican Sisters at my grammar school used to tell us when we got whiny with “It’s too hot …” or something. The idea was that it helped the poor souls in Purgatory or made it up to God for all the evil that was being done in the world. A nice thought, and probably good theology - but said too often to a child and they’ll eventually think “I’ll offer YOU up!” lol. Or feel like that.

Said in an impatient spirit it could come off as a gentle “shut up”.

On a more serious note, from the Catechism:

307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170

 

[Linux]

This quote from the late (Blessed) Fulton Sheen gave me a lot of peace during my late parents’ last days. In some ways they became like little angels again. Simple. Helpless as babies. Almost reduced to just love in their last days.

I thought of posting this on the thread that examined “the problem of evil” or adding it as an insight on threads tracking the health problems of some prominent people who are ill - but opted instead to let it be a thread on its own.

I found this insightful and profound. Though I do not relish the thought of illness in MY future. Your thoughts?

Humility and alienation usually proceeds an impediment. As a result it can happen that a person has to find other grounds for glorification and personal value if they cannot receive it from other humans (humans naturally seek some form of glory or self value. Hey look at me!). That which previously may have been satisfied by a sinful idolatrous lifestyle is left empty. In that situation, belief and conformity to God may seem like the only meaningful choice they have left in their lives, the only form of glory and personal value they have access to.

I would argue that most people come to have faith simply because they perceive their value as people as being limited in some way. They may want to escape psychological torment or even the mundanity of life.

 

[CaptFun]

Two questions - what of those who are already devout who are struck by profound illness? I think particularly of my mother, who has been a committed Catholic all her life, who now has been afflicted with dementia. My father, who cares for her at present, is also a lifelong Catholic. What of them?

Secondly, by reducing the capacity and opportunity to sin, is not illness interfering with a person’s much-vaunted ‘free will’?

Question 1: Even the devout probably need to be purified of things. Or break patterns that rule us. Dementia has a way of robbing its victims of memories (and seemingly part of their personality), yet has the positive side effect of helping the person almost automatically “forgiving others their trespasses” by forgetting the trespasses and the trespassers.

Both of my parents had this to a degree before they passed. They became simple, like angels. Glad to see us, not angry about much of anything (no grudges or suspicions) – and they had been in my estimation very devout all their lives.

Your father is proving his love for his spouse and you will always remember that about him. Love is proved best when its hard. Love them while you can Sair - it sounds like you DO, so what I really mean is cherish your moments with them. With mine - I recalled how when I was too little to care for myself they did. So I enjoyed visiting them and doing what I COULD with them - recognizing that they were a bit diminished but still HERE to love.

As your folks seem to be suffering, but not for any wrongdoing of note nor any conversion they’d been putting off – they are still a bit like Jesus and the other saints in that. Possibly to their eternal credit as they bear their cross patiently (and inspire you).

Sheen’s commentary was less about people like your parents than noting positive side effects of the cross of illness.

A more physical than spiritual example from my own life is that once for about two months I was sick, incapacitated and feared imminent death each time sleep approached (scary dreams, some with me “dying”). Gradually my medicines took effect and I regained my health. Meanwhile my almost total lack of appetite had helped me shed 30 pounds - and when health came back, I looked and felt better than ever! What doesn’t kill us makes us strong is the platitude that comes to mind here.

1. (Does illness interfere with free will?) Not completely. True - if a criminal’s hands are paralyzed they cannot exercize their free will to pull the trigger on the enemy they’d like to shoot at - but free will remains on whether to continue to hate and plot etc.

God in His mercy may protect us from being led into (the particular) temptation where we’d fall and commit a destructive sin. But sinbound people are allowed their free will mostly -and will eventually do the wrong they intend. That is all of us on our “bad day” I suppose - not to equate murderers with overeaters or anything.

Free will is also part of true repentance. The “good thief” on the cross next to Jesus was made incapable of stealing anymore – but he reviled Jesus for awhile (committing what sin he was capable of). Later, he repented of both sins. With the freedom he had left, he publicly confessed his guilt, and Jesus’ innocence, warned his fellow thief to care for his soul at this- their last minutes, proclaimed Jesus a king, and asked for Jesus to remember him. He was among the first to enter heaven - yet still suffered for a bit even after Jesus’ promise.

Our free will is that indomitable part of ourselves that we control. Jesus offers a covenant.
We don’t have to take Him up on it. He will not make us.

It does not control the rest of the world of course. My free will is to fly like a hawk for the rest of the afternoon. How cool! Darn. I have not the power. I could buy a plane ticket though …

:takeoff: Capt Fun has taken off on a tangent and will be back presently.