I'm curious of our refutation to this image

[27lw]

Thanks for the clarification @Vico and @(name removed by moderator)!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Despite the constant claims to the contrary I see on CAF I have yet to see any evidence at all, outside scriptural claims about golden calves, that anyone, anywhere has ever worshipped any statue or similar object believing the object to be itself a god rather than the residence of a god, or as a symbol of a god.

Actually that’s the claim that a lot of other religions make ABOUT Catholics, not a claim that we go around making about Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

Certain groups of Protestants, especially Evangelicals, are always claiming that “Catholics Worship Statues”.

As you said, there’s zero evidence that we do that, except that when some Protestant sees us kneeling in front of a statue they starting pointing and going, “See?”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think Catholics really bow towards the statue and make a show of reverence to the actual statue the way that lady is doing.

Not sure where you live, but I see it all the time at every Marian shrine ever.

Except Guadalupe where the holy image is 20 or 30 feet above everybody’s head so they have to all look up rather than bow (plus you’re on a moving walkway and gestures can make you lose your balance).

 

[DeniseNY]

Am I the only one who thinks “protie” is uncharitable? If we as Catholics expect others to respect us on CAF, we should do the same in return.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I didn’t realize what it meant and thought it was a typo. I presume it’s short for Protestant? I’ve always seen that spelled “Proddy” but yes, it’s a tad disrespectful either way. Best to write out the word “Protestant”.

 

[Genesis315]

Idolatry literally means giving latria to an idol (idol-latria). Latria is the adoration to due the God alone as first principle and source of all creation. The Scriptures say, give honor to whom honor is due, and it is fine to give proportional honor due in relation to the merits of the person being honored, God being supreme. Likewise, honor is not paid to an image as a thing–to the stone or paint or whatever–but to the person it represents.

Idolatry honors creatures instead of God for things that are properly attributable only to God. It is a violation of justice because it deprives God of the honor due Him. But this does not mean we cannot justly honor others for their respective merits, keeping in mind that God is the ultimate cause of them and honoring Him for that.

 

[twf]

In the Book of Daniel, Daniel prostrates before the Angel Gabriel and calls him “lord”. He is not corrected nor rebuked. In Revelation, John prostrates before the Angel and is rebuked. Same action… but different intent. Daniel was obviously simply venerating the Angel as a great messenger of God.

Adding to that… the same Angel Daniel honoured in turn honoured the Virgin Mary… Hail, full of grace…

 

[Mintaka]

To be fair, also, Daniel was hanging out at the royal court of Babylon, where prostration was pretty common treatment of human lords.

In Revelation, it’s not always clear which angels are just angels, and which angels are Jesus in angelic form instead of human or lamb form; or the Holy Spirit appearing in angelic form instead of human or bird or flame form.

Meanwhile, John was a member of Christ’s Body and an apostle, so he really was on more equal terms with angels than Daniel would have been. And he was standing in the Court of Heaven, where God and the Lamb have their throne, and where the Elders prostrate themselves to Him.

Prostrating to anybody else but the King of Glory would be gauche, while in Heaven.

 

[FiveLinden]

Thank you for these interesting points but they do not respond to my question. Do you have an example of anyone worshipping and object?

 

[Vico]

Thank you for these interesting points but they do not respond to my question. Do you have an example of anyone worshipping and object?

Menzies (History of Religion, p. 129) holds that primitive man, like the untutored savage of today, in worshipping a tree, a snake, or an idol, worshipped the very objects themselves.
…
Fetishism contents itself with particular objects in which it is supposed a spirit has for a longer or a shorter time taken up its abode. In spiritism, spirits are not bound up with certain objects, but may change their mode of revelation …
…
A fetish may be an image, e.g. the New Zealand wakapakoko, or not, but the divine power or spirit is supposed to be wholly incorporated in it. Farnell says an image may be viewed as a symbol, or as infused with divine power, or as the divinity itself. Idolatry in this sense is a higher form of fetishism.

Driscoll, J.T. (1909). Fetishism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved October 14, 2020 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06052b.htm

The Inca religion combined features of animism, fetishism, and the worship of nature gods. The pantheon was headed by Inti, the sun god, and included also Viracocha, a creator god and culture hero, and Apu Illapu, the rain god.

“Inca”.Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online.Encyclopædia Britannica Inc., 2017

 

[FiveLinden]

These are repetitions of the the claims I was challenging. They are evidence only that the claims were made. I am looking for evidence along the lines of ‘yes, I think this tree is the creator of the universe - not a spirit associated with it but the tree itself, and I worship it’. Observations by 19th century Europeans are secondary and often unreliable sources of information about indigenous people and their beliefs.