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pablope
Guest
Okay…God…but how does or how did God communicate this you that it is fine?
By direct revelation to you? If this is so…how do you know it it actually God and you are not being deceived?
Somebody told you? And if someone told you so…why do you believe that person as speaking for or in behalf of God?
God came in various forms in the OT…example would be the burning bush to Moses. But in the NT…He took on the human form. So we know He can take on human form.
Do you think God does not have the power to appear as He wants to in front of you if He wanted to appear before you? Can He not take any form He wants to represent Himself?
Who says? Who is the authority to say this is so?
I’m simply using a logic that I think fits, everyone does.
Ah…so you are speaking of your own authority then?
But what is the basis of you logic when you stated…why we shouldn’t make a physical representation of Christ…this is just your opinion then.
So let me ask…why should I believe your opinion of what Christ wants? What is the basis of your opinion.
.
Fire away with questions…
Okay…who can judge what is Scriptural and what is not? Why do you believe the Scriptures are the word of God?I’m currently comparing my beliefs to another and see who is more, let’s say ‘‘near the scripture’’. I’d be ready to change my beliefs if doubt comes in or if proven wrong. God bless.
G
guanophore
Guest
And a digital recorder! I am looking for the mp3’s of Paul preaching in Tyrannus.No, because we don’t know what he really looks like. How we wish digital camera and Ipad were available then and we can see the whole story in National Geographic.
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guanophore
Guest
I have two responses to this.
- Using an image of Jesus or some other Holy reality to help you focus your prayers is not idolatry. You are not praying “to” the image, but to the One represented in it.
- The HS brings many images to our minds when we are in prayer for various reasons. Throughout history He comes to the mind of the saints in various forms. The children of Fatima were shown images of hell, but that does not mean they were praying to “hell” or a created
“thing”. The human faculty of imagination can produce it’s own images, which always predisposes our experience to be suspect, ,since we may not necessarily know the origin of the image(self, or God). But God also uses our imaginal faculty to manifest Himself and other things He wishes to impart to us (He may bring to our minds someone who needs our prayers, for example). Whenever prayer is Christ centered, one need not concern oneself with the source of the images, but to submit everything to God.
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guanophore
Guest
It may be for you, since you seem to have fallen away from the One True Faith, and have no espoused some strange practices that are not consistent with Catholic faith. God has authored the creation of images to assist His people in their prayers.
You may not realize the difference between being guided by an image in prayer to make you more devoted to God, and worshipping a created thing. Bottom line:
James 4:17-5:1
17 Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin.
Therefore if you believe you are committing idolatry by using an image of Christ, then it is possible that you are. It would be prudent for you to refrain from such a practice, until you can return once again to the fullness of faith into which you were baptized.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Agree too. With his excellent command of the language, he articulates it better.This!!
Jon
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guanophore
Guest
As has been pointed out, this is contrary to the human nature God gave us at Creation.
Indeed you are right, this logic can be used to explain such a thing. The reason that Catholics don’t use it is because it is not part of Divine Revelation. In fact, it is contrary to what God has communicated to mankind about Himself. Unfortunately you seem to have departed from communion with that divine revelation, so you will be prone to stray off on all kinds of human “logic” and “imagination” that is contrary to His will.
M
Marie5890
Guest
Thanks Patrick!!! I didnt know the history behind the Veronica other than it’s one of the few non- biblical accounts of the more traditional Stations of the Cross.
I appreciate a laying out of the known history!!
I
Ion
Guest
After the Resurrection, Jesus was not recognized right away in many cases.
How this can be?
How this can be?
P
patrick457
Guest
The first record we have about the cloth dates from 1011, when Pope Sergius IV is said to have consecrated an altar to the relic in St. Peter’s Basilica, appointing a scribe as keeper of it. A canon of St. Peter’s named Petrus Mallius, writing in about 1160, speaks of the following (Historia Basilicae Antiquae S.P. Apostoli in Vaticano, chaps. 25, 37):Thanks Patrick!!! I didnt know the history behind the Veronica other than it’s one of the few non- biblical accounts of the more traditional Stations of the Cross.
I appreciate a laying out of the known history!!
The oratorium of the holy Mother of God, called the Veronica, in which are kept [apart from the crib relic]…the indubitable genuine sudarium of Christ ubi sine dubio est sudarium], the cloth into which he pressed his most holy face before his Passion, when his sweat ran in drops of blood to the earth. … Before the Veronica ten lamps burn day and night.
In this case, Petrus identifies the ‘sudarium’ (as he calls it) as being a cloth in which Jesus wiped His face when He sweated blood in Gethsemane. He does not describe any image on the cloth, nor does he name any woman in connection with the relic.
Firm recording of the Veronica only begins in 1199 when two pilgrims, the Norman-Welsh Gerald de Barri and Gervase of Tilbury made two accounts at different times of a visit to Rome which made direct reference to the cloth’s existence. Interestingly enough, they each give somewhat different stories as to the cloth’s origin. This is what Gervase says (Otia imperialia 3.89):
And there are images of the countenance vultus] of the Lord, like the Veronica, which is said to have come to Rome with a certain Veronica, an unknown woman. But we have proved from very ancient texts that in truth she was Martha … who was cured of a twelve-year issue of blood by touching the hem of the Lord’s robe. We know from old tradition that she possessed a likeness of the Lord’s face painted on a panel in tabula pictam habuisse Dominici vultus effigiem]. Emperor Tiberius sent his friend Volusian to Jerusalem to find about the mirables of Christ, by whom he wanted his illness cured [whereupon Volusian seized the image from Martha]. … Tiberius is said to have been cured at his first sight of the Veronica painting. … It is therefore the Veronica, the authentic painting, which shows the likeness of the head and shoulders of the Lord in the flesh pictura Domini vera secundum carnem representans efficiem a pectore superius] and is kept at St. Peter’s, on the right of the entrance.
We note that in Gervase’s account, ‘Veronica’ is identified with the woman healed of the issue of blood, who in turn Gervase names ‘Martha’ (is there an identification with Martha, sister of Mary of Bethany here?). He is also the first to say that there was an image of a face on the Veronica (which is here purported to be a panel), although he doesn’t seem to think that it was miraculously-formed. Gervase repeatedly calls it a ‘painting’, albeit one which is painted from life. Immediately after this Gervase goes on to talk about other images of Jesus found at the Lateran and at Lucca.
There is also another copy effigies] of the Lord’s face, also painted on a panel in tabulae aeque depicta] in the chapel of S. Lorenzo in the Lateran palace. Pope Alexander III (1159-81) had it covered with several layers of silk cloth multiplici panno serico operuit] becaused it caused mortal fear in the onlooker. And an eyewitness reports the following: if one looks closely at the Lord’s face, which was so badly damaged by a Jew in the Lateran palace, near the chapel of S. Lorenzo, that blood flowed from the wound and covered the right side, one notices that it resembles the Veronica in St. Peter’s as well as the painting that is found in the chapel itself, and the Volto Santo in Lucca.
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patrick457
Guest
Gerald writes in very much the same vein as Gervase, in that he speaks about the three ‘authentic’ images of Jesus (Speculum ecclesiae, chap. 6):
[Gerald reports on the five basilicas of the patriarchate in Rome and] the two icons iconiis] of the Redeemer, the Uronica and the Veronica, one of which is to be found in the Lateran and the other in St. Peter’s. [After Christ’s Ascension, St. Luke was asked by Mary to paint an image of her son, which with her help was authenticated and approved in its physical details.] Thus he produced two or three, one of which is kept in Rome … in the Sancta Sanctorum. It is said that when the pope once dared to look at it, he lost his sight at that very instant. From then on, the image was covered entirely in gold and silver, except for the right knee, from which healing oil issues. This image is called Uronica, that is, the genuine essentialis].
Another image in Rome is called the Veronica after a matron of that name. [Once, when the Lord was coming out of the temple, this woman lifted] her robe peplum] and pressed it to his face. On it he left his image as an imprint. This image is likewise held in honor reverentia], except through the veils hanging in front of it nisi per velorum quae ante dependent, interpositionem]. … And some say that Veronica is a play on words vocabula alludentes], meaning the true icon veram iconiam] or the true image imaginem veram].
Now I shall deal with the vultus Lucanus [the *Volto Santo in Lucca] that was not painted but carved in wood with pious skill by Nicodemus. Four bishps … who were sent to Constantinople for relics … brought back this image together with an ampoule and the blood that flowed from the icon crucified by a Jew de iconia a Judaeo crucifixa].
Gerald’s version of the story is the closest to the one we have now: he identifies the Veronica as being Veronica’s peplum (originally denoting a tunic; also a veil-like sort of cloth), which she pressed to the face of Jesus as He was going out of the Temple. (There is no indication that it was during the Passion.) Unlike Gervase, Gerald distinguishes between this miraculously-formed portrait with the Lateran icon, which he dubs Uronica.
In 1207, the “sudarium” was publicly paraded and displayed by Pope Innocent III between St Peter’s and the Santo Spirito Hospital, who also granted indulgences to anyone praying before it. This is what the anonymous Gesta Innocentii III Papae (an account of the pope’s life) says about it:
At the said hospital, Innocent III inaugurated a solemn station Mass on the first Sunday after the octave of the Epiphany. The Christian populace gathered there to see and venerate the sudarium of the Lord, which which was carried by a procession from St. Peter’s to that place, singing hymns and psalms by torchlight. They also want to hear the sermon preached there by the Roman pontiff on the works of compassion and the remission of sins.
We, Honorius III (1216-27), decree that the likeness of Christ at St. Peter’s … shall be carried to the said hospital … in reverence, in a specially made reliquary of gold, silver, and jewels. There, in the presence of the pope, it shall be shown to the faithful according to their expectation.
Matthew Paris in his Chronica Majora (after 1245) relates a story about how when the procession was over, the Veronica miraculously turned and stood on its head upside-down. Taking it for a bad omen, the disturbed pope composed a special prayer with the indulgence attached.
On the Veronica and its authentication autenticatione]. As was customary, Pope Innocent … led the image effigiem] in procession from St. Peter’s to the hospital of Sto. Spirito. When the procession was over and people wanted to put the image back in its place, it turned round of its own accord se per se girabat], so that it stood on its head with the forehead below and the beard at the top. The pope was shocked, taking it as a bad omen triste presagium] and on the brothers’ advice wanted to make amends to God. He therefore composed an elegant prayer in honor of the image, to which he added a psalm with a number of verses [probably Ps. 4:7], and granted a ten days’ indulgence to all who said the prayer. … Many have commended the prayer and everything connected to it cum pertinenciis] for memorization memorie commendarunt] and, to arouse more devotion in themselves, have illustrated it as follows picturis effigiarunt hoc modo].
The name “Veronica” is derived from a woman of that name, at whose request Christ printed his face on the cloth. One should make the sign of the cross and say signans se igitur homo dicat]: The light of your countenance, O Lord, has appeared to us signatum]; [after Ps. 4:7. There follow Ps. 85:16; 26:18, 104:4, and 79:20 and the prayer said to have been composed by Innocent]. Lord, you have left behind for us, who are marked signatis] by the light of your face, the image imprinted on the cloth of Veronica sudario impressam imaginem] as your memento memoriale]. Grant, for the sake of your Passion and the cross, that we, as we now adore and venerate this on earth in a mirror and parable per speculum et in enigmate], shall one day see you face to face facie ad faciem] as judge on the good side securi].
[Gerald reports on the five basilicas of the patriarchate in Rome and] the two icons iconiis] of the Redeemer, the Uronica and the Veronica, one of which is to be found in the Lateran and the other in St. Peter’s. [After Christ’s Ascension, St. Luke was asked by Mary to paint an image of her son, which with her help was authenticated and approved in its physical details.] Thus he produced two or three, one of which is kept in Rome … in the Sancta Sanctorum. It is said that when the pope once dared to look at it, he lost his sight at that very instant. From then on, the image was covered entirely in gold and silver, except for the right knee, from which healing oil issues. This image is called Uronica, that is, the genuine essentialis].
Another image in Rome is called the Veronica after a matron of that name. [Once, when the Lord was coming out of the temple, this woman lifted] her robe peplum] and pressed it to his face. On it he left his image as an imprint. This image is likewise held in honor reverentia], except through the veils hanging in front of it nisi per velorum quae ante dependent, interpositionem]. … And some say that Veronica is a play on words vocabula alludentes], meaning the true icon veram iconiam] or the true image imaginem veram].
Now I shall deal with the vultus Lucanus [the *Volto Santo in Lucca] that was not painted but carved in wood with pious skill by Nicodemus. Four bishps … who were sent to Constantinople for relics … brought back this image together with an ampoule and the blood that flowed from the icon crucified by a Jew de iconia a Judaeo crucifixa].
Gerald’s version of the story is the closest to the one we have now: he identifies the Veronica as being Veronica’s peplum (originally denoting a tunic; also a veil-like sort of cloth), which she pressed to the face of Jesus as He was going out of the Temple. (There is no indication that it was during the Passion.) Unlike Gervase, Gerald distinguishes between this miraculously-formed portrait with the Lateran icon, which he dubs Uronica.
In 1207, the “sudarium” was publicly paraded and displayed by Pope Innocent III between St Peter’s and the Santo Spirito Hospital, who also granted indulgences to anyone praying before it. This is what the anonymous Gesta Innocentii III Papae (an account of the pope’s life) says about it:
At the said hospital, Innocent III inaugurated a solemn station Mass on the first Sunday after the octave of the Epiphany. The Christian populace gathered there to see and venerate the sudarium of the Lord, which which was carried by a procession from St. Peter’s to that place, singing hymns and psalms by torchlight. They also want to hear the sermon preached there by the Roman pontiff on the works of compassion and the remission of sins.
We, Honorius III (1216-27), decree that the likeness of Christ at St. Peter’s … shall be carried to the said hospital … in reverence, in a specially made reliquary of gold, silver, and jewels. There, in the presence of the pope, it shall be shown to the faithful according to their expectation.
Matthew Paris in his Chronica Majora (after 1245) relates a story about how when the procession was over, the Veronica miraculously turned and stood on its head upside-down. Taking it for a bad omen, the disturbed pope composed a special prayer with the indulgence attached.
On the Veronica and its authentication autenticatione]. As was customary, Pope Innocent … led the image effigiem] in procession from St. Peter’s to the hospital of Sto. Spirito. When the procession was over and people wanted to put the image back in its place, it turned round of its own accord se per se girabat], so that it stood on its head with the forehead below and the beard at the top. The pope was shocked, taking it as a bad omen triste presagium] and on the brothers’ advice wanted to make amends to God. He therefore composed an elegant prayer in honor of the image, to which he added a psalm with a number of verses [probably Ps. 4:7], and granted a ten days’ indulgence to all who said the prayer. … Many have commended the prayer and everything connected to it cum pertinenciis] for memorization memorie commendarunt] and, to arouse more devotion in themselves, have illustrated it as follows picturis effigiarunt hoc modo].
The name “Veronica” is derived from a woman of that name, at whose request Christ printed his face on the cloth. One should make the sign of the cross and say signans se igitur homo dicat]: The light of your countenance, O Lord, has appeared to us signatum]; [after Ps. 4:7. There follow Ps. 85:16; 26:18, 104:4, and 79:20 and the prayer said to have been composed by Innocent]. Lord, you have left behind for us, who are marked signatis] by the light of your face, the image imprinted on the cloth of Veronica sudario impressam imaginem] as your memento memoriale]. Grant, for the sake of your Passion and the cross, that we, as we now adore and venerate this on earth in a mirror and parable per speculum et in enigmate], shall one day see you face to face facie ad faciem] as judge on the good side securi].
P
patrick457
Guest
The parade became an annual event that on one such occasion in 1300 Pope Boniface VIII was inspired to proclaim the first Christian Jubilee in 1300. During this Jubilee the Veronica was publicly displayed and became one of the mirabilia urbis (“wonders of the City”) for the pilgrims who visited Rome. So great was the throng of people that an English Benedictine monk was actually crushed and fatally injured while attempting to see the relic. Pedro Tafur, a Spanish visitor at St. Peter’s in 1436, noted:
On the right hand [of the basilica] is a pillar as high as a small tower, and in it is the holy Veronica. When it is to be exhibited an opening is made in the roof of the church and a wooden chest or cradle is let down, in which are two clerics, and when they have descended, the chest or cradle is drawn up, and they, with the greatest reverence, take out the Veronica and show it to the people, who make concourse there upon the appointed day. It happens often that the worshippers are in danger of their lives, so many are they and so great is the press.
As mentioned, except for Petrus Mallius’ version of the Veronica’s origins, there was originally no explicit connection between the relic and the Passion in the more common versions of the story. In Jacobus de Voragine’s Golden Legend (ca. 1260), the entry for The Passion of the Lord (Good Friday) has a section about the legend of how Tiberius was cured by the image:
When Pilate had handed Jesus over to the Jews to be crucified, he was afraid that his condemnation of innocent blood might offend Tiberius Caesar, and dispatched one of his familiars to make a case for him to the emperor. Meanwhile, it was announced to Tiberius, who was seriously ill, that in Jerusalem there was a physician who cured all diseases by his word alone. Therefore the emperor, not knowing that Pilate and the Jews had put this physician to death, said to one of his intimates, whose name was Volusian: “Cross the sea as fast as you can, and tell Pilate to send this healer to me so that he may restore me to health.” Volusian came to Pilate and delivered the emperor’s command, but Pilate, terror-stricken, asked for a fortnight’s grace.
During this time Volusian made the acquaintance of a woman named Veronica, who had been in Jesus’ company, and asked her where he might find Jesus Christ. She answered: “Alas, he was my Lord and my God, and Pilate, to whom he was handed over through envy, condemned him and commanded that he be crucified.” Volusian was grieved at this and said: “I am deeply sorry that I cannot carry out the orders my master gave me.” Veronica answered: “When the Teacher was going about preaching and I, to my regret, could not be with him, I wanted to have his picture painted so that when I was deprived of his presence, I could at least have the solace of his image. So one day I was carrying a piece of linen to the painter when I met Jesus, and he asked where I was going. I told him what my errand was. He asked for the cloth I had in my hand, pressed it to his venerable face, and left his image on it. If you master looks devoutly upon this image, he will at once be rewarded by being cured.” “Can this image be bought for gold or silver?” Volusian asked. “No,” Veronica replied, “only true piety can make it effective. Therefore I will go with you and let Caesar look upon the image, after which I will return home.”
The 12th-century German poem known as Dit is Veronica has the man who was supposed to paint Jesus’ portrait as St. Luke. In the poem, Veronica tries to have a portrait of Him made three times, all of which end in failure. Eventually, Jesus Himself arrives in person and decides to eat at Veronica’s house. Before eating, He washes His face and, drying it on a towel, leaves an imprint of His face onto it.
The linking of the relic with the bearing of the cross in the Passion was first made by Roger d’Argenteuil’s prose retelling of the Bible in French (aka Bible en françois) in the 13th century, and gained further popularity following the internationally popular work, Meditationes Vitae Christi (Meditations on the Life of Christ) of about 1300 by a Pseudo-Bonaventuran author. In Roger’s version, Jesus, on His way to Calvary, passes by Veronica who was carrying her handkerchief (‘vernicle’) to sell at market. Veronica sees Jesus’ bloodied face, feels compassion for Him, and mops His face with the cloth, “and suddenly the face of Our Lord was portrayed in the veil just as if it were in flesh and bone.”
On the right hand [of the basilica] is a pillar as high as a small tower, and in it is the holy Veronica. When it is to be exhibited an opening is made in the roof of the church and a wooden chest or cradle is let down, in which are two clerics, and when they have descended, the chest or cradle is drawn up, and they, with the greatest reverence, take out the Veronica and show it to the people, who make concourse there upon the appointed day. It happens often that the worshippers are in danger of their lives, so many are they and so great is the press.
As mentioned, except for Petrus Mallius’ version of the Veronica’s origins, there was originally no explicit connection between the relic and the Passion in the more common versions of the story. In Jacobus de Voragine’s Golden Legend (ca. 1260), the entry for The Passion of the Lord (Good Friday) has a section about the legend of how Tiberius was cured by the image:
When Pilate had handed Jesus over to the Jews to be crucified, he was afraid that his condemnation of innocent blood might offend Tiberius Caesar, and dispatched one of his familiars to make a case for him to the emperor. Meanwhile, it was announced to Tiberius, who was seriously ill, that in Jerusalem there was a physician who cured all diseases by his word alone. Therefore the emperor, not knowing that Pilate and the Jews had put this physician to death, said to one of his intimates, whose name was Volusian: “Cross the sea as fast as you can, and tell Pilate to send this healer to me so that he may restore me to health.” Volusian came to Pilate and delivered the emperor’s command, but Pilate, terror-stricken, asked for a fortnight’s grace.
During this time Volusian made the acquaintance of a woman named Veronica, who had been in Jesus’ company, and asked her where he might find Jesus Christ. She answered: “Alas, he was my Lord and my God, and Pilate, to whom he was handed over through envy, condemned him and commanded that he be crucified.” Volusian was grieved at this and said: “I am deeply sorry that I cannot carry out the orders my master gave me.” Veronica answered: “When the Teacher was going about preaching and I, to my regret, could not be with him, I wanted to have his picture painted so that when I was deprived of his presence, I could at least have the solace of his image. So one day I was carrying a piece of linen to the painter when I met Jesus, and he asked where I was going. I told him what my errand was. He asked for the cloth I had in my hand, pressed it to his venerable face, and left his image on it. If you master looks devoutly upon this image, he will at once be rewarded by being cured.” “Can this image be bought for gold or silver?” Volusian asked. “No,” Veronica replied, “only true piety can make it effective. Therefore I will go with you and let Caesar look upon the image, after which I will return home.”
The 12th-century German poem known as Dit is Veronica has the man who was supposed to paint Jesus’ portrait as St. Luke. In the poem, Veronica tries to have a portrait of Him made three times, all of which end in failure. Eventually, Jesus Himself arrives in person and decides to eat at Veronica’s house. Before eating, He washes His face and, drying it on a towel, leaves an imprint of His face onto it.
The linking of the relic with the bearing of the cross in the Passion was first made by Roger d’Argenteuil’s prose retelling of the Bible in French (aka Bible en françois) in the 13th century, and gained further popularity following the internationally popular work, Meditationes Vitae Christi (Meditations on the Life of Christ) of about 1300 by a Pseudo-Bonaventuran author. In Roger’s version, Jesus, on His way to Calvary, passes by Veronica who was carrying her handkerchief (‘vernicle’) to sell at market. Veronica sees Jesus’ bloodied face, feels compassion for Him, and mops His face with the cloth, “and suddenly the face of Our Lord was portrayed in the veil just as if it were in flesh and bone.”
C
choliks
Guest
Here’s my problem with the charge of idolatry:
When we pray in front of the crucifix made of wood, are we praying to a different god? Are we praying to an olympian mythical deity? Are we praying to the animistic spirits? Are we praying to the wood? Or are we praying to the One Lord, Jesus Christ…
I certainly don’t pray, “dear wood, grant me the grain…”
To the OP, who are you praying to: the face or God?
If you’re removing the face of Christ from your imagination, doesn’t that make your relationship with Him impersonal? You’d rather that Christ doesn’t have a face (even if it just resembles an artist’s recreation) because you think you might commit idolatry? That doesn’t make much sense. God didn’t really become a faceless human, you know.
Whether the artists’ interpretations were accurate or not, that doesn’t take away from the fact that God became human, and he had a face.
When we pray in front of the crucifix made of wood, are we praying to a different god? Are we praying to an olympian mythical deity? Are we praying to the animistic spirits? Are we praying to the wood? Or are we praying to the One Lord, Jesus Christ…
…who is represented in the crucifix?
I certainly don’t pray, “dear wood, grant me the grain…”
To the OP, who are you praying to: the face or God?
If you’re removing the face of Christ from your imagination, doesn’t that make your relationship with Him impersonal? You’d rather that Christ doesn’t have a face (even if it just resembles an artist’s recreation) because you think you might commit idolatry? That doesn’t make much sense. God didn’t really become a faceless human, you know.
Whether the artists’ interpretations were accurate or not, that doesn’t take away from the fact that God became human, and he had a face.
K
kimg901
Guest
This may seem crazy to some, but when I was blessed to be in the presence of Christ (Yes, He came to me in a vision. At the time I no longer had faith or belief in God) He had some resemblence of what we paint of him. He was about 6’ 2", darker skin, hair that was dark brown and about shoulder length and slightly curly. He wore a beard that was the same color of His hair. His sandals where old and worn and His garments looked old too and had the look of a worker. His radiance was, well I cant explain it but it warmed me. He told me to come to Him, He was standing in a church and gave me stigmata (I woke up or came to after the vision) and told me that I must protect His Church. He sent me on my way and my family asked me what He wanted me to do. There was a waist high rock that I was supposed to save and protect. So the images we have of Jesus are pretty much the same but His skin color is off.
M
maszloch
Guest
You can find His image here: manoppello.eu/eng
Juliusz, Poland.
Juliusz, Poland.
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