Images and Idols

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Can anyone explain this commandement? Im always confused and when a protestant tells me this i get very agitated, because in a way it is true

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
 
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DEESYPAL:
Can anyone explain this commandement? Im always confused and when a protestant tells me this i get very agitated, because in a way it is true

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
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As with all seemingly “anti-Catholic” Bible passages context is everything. It is important to see that God is not saying that we (the Israelites in specific) cannot make images, period. But rather we cannot make images AND bow down and worship them. This becomes appearant when look at all of scripture. Just five chapters later in the same book God commands them to make a graven image. (see Ex. 25:18) So, which is to make them or not to make them? I think the answer then becomes clear, that it is not to make them and worship them. Unless, that is of course we have a really forgetful god.
 
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DEESYPAL:
You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
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Obviously we are not to worship images. We are to worship God alone. But if the commandment really forbade the making of ANY images, as it would if we took it literally, there could be no magazines, TV, movies, internet, or family photos.
 
I’ve been in many Protestant homes…and most of them have pictures depicting Jesus. Isn’t that an image?

And just to add to what others have said, have them pull out their wallets. Look at the walls of their homes. Do they have photos of loved ones? Do they ask some, if not all, of those loved ones to pray for them?

I’ve been to many many many Protestant forums and I can provide links to many more, all filed with prayer teams soliciting people to ask them to pray for them. This is what the Saints do.

A picture of a saint is like the photo of a loved one that we ask to pray for us. And praying to them is not communicating with the dead. Rather, they are living, they are a part of the “body of Christ” as he promised in the Bible.

Jesus promised a way to eternal life. Those who live in Him are not dead. Therefore the Saints are not dead, and those pictures we have depicting them are real people living in Christ, examples of the Holy family we are all a part of.

This IS Biblical, although I don’t recall the verses.

Funny, isn’t it, how one topic so easlily leads to another objection and response?

The issue is WORSHIPING graven images. If we kneel at an image, our kneeling is to God alone, but that Saint is there so that we can meditate on their example and follow what they did to emulate Christ.
 
If you look at the verses in the Bible (sorry, I can’t remember the references, maybe someone else could help?) where God is giving Solomon the instructions for the Temple, he instructs him to make images of cherubim and/or seraphim (again, sorry, I can’t remember exactly it).

If you need referenced verses, I’m not completely ignorant, although the previous paragraph probably gave that impression. Like a previous poster said, Exodus 25:13 says “You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.” Numbers 21:8-9 says “And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Make a poisonous serpent, and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.’ So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.” These passages show God commanding people to make images of things both in the heaven above and on the earth beneath. Clearly, the commandment relates to creating images for the purpose of worshipping them, otherwise God would be commanding people to break his commandments.
 
Grace and Glory:
If you look at the verses in the Bible (sorry, I can’t remember the references, maybe someone else could help?) where God is giving Solomon the instructions for the Temple, he instructs him to make images of cherubim and/or seraphim (again, sorry, I can’t remember exactly it).
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Ditto. I also highly recommend Patrick Madrid’s book Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine on this topic.
 
At the time of the Israelites, God had not yet walked the earth. The people could not make images and worship it like they would God.

Since Jesus walked the earth, in human form, a statue or picture or even a crucifix would not be considered a “graven image”. Although we have no description of Jesus on record, we assume he looked like most other human beings. Artisits have tried to imagine what Jesus looked like since the beginning. Just because it’s their rendition, doesn’t make it a graven image.

We keep pictures or statues of Jesus to remind us of Him - we are human and I guess it’s one of our weaknesses that we need to fill all our senses. We are touchy-feely creatures - God made us that way and I think He understands that we need to see, feel and touch to help remind us of people who have passed. We love them and it helps us remember.

The same goes for statues/pictures of other pious and great people. It remeind us that they were human, like us and that if they could live a holy life then maybe we can too. The statues and pictures help inspire us to remember their lives and their devotion to the Lord. Hopefully, that can inspire the same (at least to a degree) devotion in us.

I think part of the problem with non-catholics not “praying to” Mary or any of the saints is that they believe that when you die - you’re dead! That’s it. If they go to God, then they to God and they are not worried about what happens here on earth any longer. They don’t see the saints as being alive in Christ and being able to hear our prayers but it’s clear in Revelation that they can. What about the Transfiguration? Moses and Elijah were alive and conversing with Christ - and they died before Christ’s resurrection!

Unfortunately, I think that non-catholics put constraints on the power of God and what “He would do” or “should or should not do.” This also came out of the Reformation and the Iconoclasts who denied the teaching of “praying to” the saints. The Iconoclasts destroyed so many beautiful churches, statues and valuable artwork because of this erroneous teaching. This teaching was contrary to the fact that people have been “praying to” the saints for centuries, long before Jesus. This is evidenced in the book of Maccabees, which, of course, Martin Luther threw out to bolster his position on NOT “praying to” the saints.

Anyway, I believe that they have blown the commandment way out of proportion and are seeing the practice in a vacuum - not taking Tradition or historyinto account - not just ours but the Isrealites either.
 
DianJo…

Interesting but misguided and sad thing I read the other day in a chat room. There are those who believe that the Transfiguration was simply an allusion, just a vision manifested in the minds of the Apostols. This was an argument issued forth when the topic of chat was concerning “idol worshiping”.
:eek:

No argument is too “OUT THERE” for some to grasp onto.

Note to self: This is why Jesus left us a teaching body, His Holy Church so we will NOT be led into strange and dangerous waters. 👍
 
Obviously there is no idoltry because we are not worshiping any statues or images. They are reminders.

I see many Protestant Churches, and homes that have Nativity scenes at Christmastime. Is this idoltry? No, it’s a reminder of Christ’s birth. Is one worshiping Santa Claus because they have one of those blow up thingys somewhere in their yard? No. How about those little statues that have an angel on them that commemorate 1st communion or reconciliation? idoltry? Nope, a reminder of an important event.

If this were the case, would we ever take a photograph in fear it was idol worship?

The vietnam and WWII memorials are statues. Are we idolizing them? I think not. We MUST put this in perspective.

I find comfort when I go to church, and see Jesus on the crusifix. It is such a powerful reminder, it brings me right back to the reason I’m at the mass. It really is much more powerful that just a cross. The cross didn’t die for me, Jesus did. And having a small figure of Mary in the church reminds me of the love of the church.
 
Hi all!

We (orthodox Jews) see no contradiction in the Torah’s many warnings against making idols & images of/to worship and the command to make the Cherubim, the Brass Snake, etc.

We constructed a brass snake because God told us to in that specific instance. We put cherubim on top of the Ark of the Covenant because He told us to in that specific instance. We do not worship/adore graven images (neither did we worship the Cherubim or the Brass Snake) because He tells us not to. Some images are OK, because God says they are. Some images are bad because God says they are. God is our Commander & we obey His commands in any case. What’s the contradiction?

King Hezekiah smashed the brass snake because we had begun to use it for a forbidden purpose, see II Kings 18:4. Our Sages praise King Hezekiah for smashing Moses’ brass serpent. Our great medieval Sage, Rabbi David Kimche ( us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Kimchi.html ) writes:
Because they [the people] saw that it was written “when he looks upon it, he shall live”, they thought that it would be good to worship it as an intermediary. Since the days of Moses, it had served as a memorial of the miracle, like the jar of manna (see Exodus 16:33)…Hezekiah thought to destroy it when he destroyed the instruments of idol worship because in his father’s time, they [the people] worshipped it. Even though it was good to use it to remember the miracle, he said 'It would be better to destroy it and forget the miracle than leave it and have the children of Israel go astray after it today or tomorrow.
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Mommy, you wrote:
Obviously there is no idoltry because we are not worshiping any statues or images. They are reminders.
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While we fully respect (of course!) the views & doctrines of our Christian friends, we nevertheless believe that even as mere reminders, images are forbidden.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
Isn’t the deciding factor the purpose for which an image or statue is made and used as opposed to the image itself?

This would seem to have been the motivation for King Hezekiah’s actions, and I can well understand them, but the Catholic Church’s use of images is far and away from any concept of worship. This is just another crack that non-Catholics use to prod us. StillSmallVoice’s point about the brass serpent and the cherubim is the compelling argument and usually ends the attacks.

Hey Andy! Shalom elechim! Good to see ya again! You are one each great resource guy to have around…and a good friend.
 
God forbides the worship of images created as individual gods.We Catholics venerate images that represent a living God(statues,crucifix,etc)God himself ordered Moses in the Old Testament to make a serpent of bronze,or the little angels, guarding the Arc of the Covenant.So he allow us to make images that represents him.
 
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