Immaculate Conception

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It’s not that I think this is impossible…and it’s not that I think this is logical…what I find hard as a protestant is that there area lot of ‘leaps’ here…

IF christ was adam then mary must be Eve… a leap of human logic…
It’s not a leap of logic, as St. Paul made the assessment. And after him, many Fathers. Its’ a leap of faith, not one of logic.
F Eve was without sin then so must mary
Not a leap of logic…we KNOW Mary was without sin, from the salutation given her from God Himself, through Gabriel. “Hail, Full of Grace.”
F there is a tradtition of holiness then mry must logically be holy…
There is no if in this statement above. Look at it this way. There IS a tradition of Holiness, given to us from one of the Apostles. St. Luke. If you doubt the Scripture, then you doubt the Scripture, and nothing I, nor anyone else can say can show it to you, but only the Holy Spirit.
my feeling is that I find this hard to have faith in because these are all leaps of logoc…and faith isn’t always logical and conform to our logic. I would feel much better if there was some kind of Biblical foundation for this…never mind 100AD…there must be plenty of people who knew Mary…why did they not feel this fundamental belief significant enough to comment on in the BIble?
Again, it is not a leap of logic. St. Paul made the connection. St. Luke made the connection. Why do you doubt them? By the way, many, many theologians, as well as our Beloved Pope John Paul II wrote extensively on Faith and Reason and how they go hand in hand, and are not at odds. There is Biblical foundation, you just aren’t seeing it. I know how you feel, as a Baptist (40 years), I was scared of Mary also. St. Justin, 100 A.D., is not what we use as Biblical foundations, by the way, but only as a resource to show that the doctrine was already being taught by 100 AD, which means it was being universally taught. Now…since we KNOW that St. John lived to a very old age and probably lived to within at least 10 years of that time, don’t you think that if this doctrine were in error, he would have corrected the error? He would have at LEAST written a letter to someone, somewhere telling them it was in error? And if he wrote such a letter, wouldn’t it have been preserved? After all, he lived with Mary. Woudllnt’ he have known her better than any other Apostle? St. Ireneaus, who was taught by St. Polycarp, who learned from St. John Himself, makes the connection. Who do you suppose St. Polycarp learned it from? Since St. John WAS his teacher?

There is writing about Mary in the Fathers, if you look for it. And it upholds the teachings of the Church.

I hear this so often…“well, why isn’t it in the Bible?”

My answer. Is the Bible about Mary? No, it’s not. Did Christ instruct his Apostles to WRITE? No, he did not. The Bible is about the Good News. There was no reason for the Apostles to write much about Mary, as there was no error being taught about Mary. We do however, see St. Paul castigating, and correcting error, as well as St. John, and St. Peter. But they don’t ever say “Do NOT teach that Mary was a Virgin. Do NOT teach that Mary was sinless.” And since we KNOW from the writings of the early Fathers, that they WERE taught such things, then we can only deduce from reason, which reinforces our faith, that Mary was indeed sinless, ever virgin, immaculate, the New Eve.

Hope this helps out.

Gracie
 
I think, don’t know that it has been written
anywhere in the past, that Mary being Immaculate
points toward the person being born from her,Christ,
being Immaculate. If she was sinful could we reason
that her son may have had sin as well. Then her
son wasn’t GOD. Maybe a prophet, or a very wise
Rabbi, but(so the thinking might go) hey he was
born of that Mary girl and I know she sinned. So
it seems to make sense that he probably siinned as well.
I also thought that the Greek word used to
describe, Mary, Kecharitomene in Luke revealed
a perfect Grace not only applying to intensity of Grace
as in FULL but also in time as in **FULLY GRACED
NOW,AS IT WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE. **
 
yeah that helps gracie.

I jst feel that although the new testament is the good news…that still…to pick up on a connection between eve and mary…in effect a rebaancing or reversal of the path of mankind… I know that the good news is the focus…bu this seems a massive…almosta prophecy in itself (almost like a old covenant, eve, new covenant, mary equation if you like)

I just think that if that is true it seems like a massive ommission… even if it was just a line or two.

but your point of view does make sense to me.
 
yeah that helps gracie.

I jst feel that although the new testament is the good news…that still…to pick up on a connection between eve and mary…in effect a rebaancing or reversal of the path of mankind… I know that the good news is the focus…bu this seems a massive…almosta prophecy in itself (almost like a old covenant, eve, new covenant, mary equation if you like)

I just think that if that is true it seems like a massive ommission… even if it was just a line or two.

but your point of view does make sense to me.
But Albira, don’t you see? Christ did rebalance, and completely reverse the path of Mankind. Not Mary, but Christ. Christ is the New Covenant, not Mary. Saying that Mary is Immaculate does not mean she was divine. She was fully human. Christ was divine.

How Holy was the Ark, Albira? Men died from just touching it. Nothing else, just touching it. Men could not look at it, it was covered by the veil. It held several things, the rod of Arron, the Manna from the Desert and the Word on the stone. How much holier must Mary have had to be, to hold the Word Incarnate, the Bread of Life and the New Law?

Blessings

Gracie
 
hey gracie,

lol that’s my sisters name… you keep reminding me of her 🙂

erm… I just can’t even react to that yet. There so many things I just can’t take onboard…I mean…so many things that I didn’t know about my own faith. I suppose I feel as if my protestant upbringing has not answered a lot of questions…about the communion of saints, the scripture alone…by faith alone… I feel like all this stuff that I felt kept me secure isn’t there as I thought that it was once.

It’s hard to take on board so many new ideas…sometimes even as ideas. But I will think about it 🙂
 
to be honest with you, I made a decision to learn about Catholicism…well I don’t know why actually, I just got an urge to… and I felt like i ought to as I was prejudiced against Catholicism… to quite a degree. So I’ve been reading, and asking loads of questions, been to a Q&A session at a liberal Catholic church… and then wierdly a few weeks ago I met this ex-priest who started talking to me about Saints interceding…it’s all come a bit fast to take it all in lol
 
Abira,

I can relate 🙂 I’m a convert. I was Baptist for 40 years 🙂

If there’s anything I can do to help, let me know. In the meantime, take your time learning and really let the truths soak in and ask yourself questions, so that you really make the information your own 🙂

Blessings,

Gracie (P.S. I like your sister’s name 😉 ).
 
Genesis 3:14-15 enmity between Mary and Satan. Enmity means hostility between enemies (hatred). If you sin than aren’t you taking Satan’s side. If god put enmity between mary and satan then how can you say that she ever sinned. You will here in response to this Romans 3:9-12; Paul is quoting the old testament, as it is written. (No one does good not even one). Romans 3:23, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore Mary had to have sinned, really? Paul is quoting from the old testament in Rom 3:23; Psalms 14:1-5 “ there is none that does good, no not one” There are evil doers who do not good, and then there are the righteous. Only talking about those evil doers, if it was talking about all people then how could it talk about the generation of the righteous a verse later? If all have gone wrong then there are no righteous. Talking about the burden of original sin and not all men sinning, exceptions are made for infants and young children because we know that they have not actually committed a sin. Luke 1:6, john’s parents were walking with all righteousness and were blameless, how would this fit with all men have sinned? Luke 1:15 John the Baptist was filled with the holy spirit even from his mothers womb, Can one who is filled with the holy spirit their entire life, even before he is born commit sin? Luke 1:28 “Hail full of Grace,” Mary is full of grace even before she was pregnant. Luke 1:37 for with god nothing is impossible. Are there others in the bible who were without sin?

Revelation 14:3-5; “In their mouth no lie was found for they are spotless.”

Romans 6; if the wage of sin is death; then Enoch and Elijah must not have ever sinned because they never died. Enoch , Hebrew 11:5, never died, relates to Genesis 5:24. Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11. Paul could not have been talking about all men without exception.
 
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