"Immaculate" Mary

[Miserere_Mei]

I understand that the term immaculate as used by the greek and latin fathers in regards to the Theotokos is in regards to her Physical purity and not necessarily her sinlessness.

Virtually every eastern use of the term seems to appear in this context. Remember, one of the most important teachings about the Theotokos is her perpetual and inviolate all-holy Virginity.

So to refer to her as immaculate makes no immediate pretensions about her personal sinlessness.

What do you think?

 

[Church_Militant]

I think there’s more to it than that.

Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin (Fathers*)
Mary: Full of Grace (Fathers*)

 

[Miserere_Mei]

THose are great quotes from the Fathers and I agree with each of them.

But the Idea of Mary being conceived without the Stain of Guilt from Conception and this Idea being the basis for the term Immaculate has no Part in the Fathers.

The Fathers Never teach the immaculate conception nor imply it. They appeal to Mary’s pre-eminent and outstanding holiness by the fulness of the Spirit dwelling in her, and to the inviolate and immaculate purity of her Virginity,

but they never take it Farther, ever.

“Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.”

That’s from the article on the site about the immaculate conception

If Mary is conceived without sin, that is, free of the corrupting principles of death and decay (for these are the wages of sin), and therefore incapable of sinning, is she virtuous?

Virtue consists in choosing good over evil. But Mary has no choice if Immaculately conceived, for her nature is incapable of sin. THerefore she must be without virtue.

Or not immaculately conceived.

 

[GemmaRose]

THose are great quotes from the Fathers and I agree with each of them.

But the Idea of Mary being conceived without the Stain of Guilt from Conception and this Idea being the basis for the term Immaculate has no Part in the Fathers.

The Fathers Never teach the immaculate conception nor imply it. They appeal to Mary’s pre-eminent and outstanding holiness by the fulness of the Spirit dwelling in her, and to the inviolate and immaculate purity of her Virginity,

but they never take it Farther, ever.

“Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.”

That’s from the article on the site about the immaculate conception

If Mary is conceived without sin, that is, free of the corrupting principles of death and decay (for these are the wages of sin), and therefore incapable of sinning, is she virtuous?

Virtue consists in choosing good over evil. But Mary has no choice if Immaculately conceived, for her nature is incapable of sin. THerefore she must be without virtue.

Or not immaculately conceived.

My response to the first underlined section of your quote is not mine, but found in the first link posted above by Church Militant:

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence…

Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

I don’t think it can be more clearly explained that Mary was conceived without sin, without stain - immaculate.

My response to the second underlined portion of your quote: Your supposition that -

Virtue consists in choosing good over evil. But Mary has no choice if Immaculately conceived, for her nature is incapable of sin. THerefore she must be without virtue.

• does not appear to be logical. When God created Eve, she was not stained by any kind of sin. By your argument, Eve should have been incapable of sin. Yet Eve used her free will to disobey God’s command.

Likewise, Mary also had free will. She could have chosen to say “No,” and who could have blamed her if she had? Young, not yet married, pregnant? In the culture of her time? How could she not have had a thought of the stones which would have been thrown at her to kill her? Yet, she knew what God’s will was… the Angel had told her. Despite any fear or trepidation she may have had, she said “Yes.” She chose to do God’s will.

Mary was filled with virtue. She was filled with grace… but she still had free will. She could have said “no,” but she chose to say “yes.”

“Be it done unto me according to thy word.”

 

[MonkeyTape]

THose are great quotes from the Fathers and I agree with each of them.

But the Idea of Mary being conceived without the Stain of Guilt from Conception and this Idea being the basis for the term Immaculate has no Part in the Fathers.

The Fathers Never teach the immaculate conception nor imply it. They appeal to Mary’s pre-eminent and outstanding holiness by the fulness of the Spirit dwelling in her, and to the inviolate and immaculate purity of her Virginity,

but they never take it Farther, ever.

Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.”

That’s from the article on the site about the immaculate conception

If Mary is conceived without sin, that is, free of the corrupting principles of death and decay (for these are the wages of sin), and therefore incapable of sinning, is she virtuous?

Virtue consists in choosing good over evil. But Mary has no choice if Immaculately conceived, for her nature is incapable of sin. THerefore she must be without virtue.

Or not immaculately conceived.

These are heady topics, however my understanding of the teaching, and I could be wrong, is that God applied these graces earned by Jesus’ suffering and death to Mary ahead of time. As God exists outside of time the rewards earned by Our Lord and the decisions made by Mary can be appropriately applied at any time He wills. So to say that she is without virtue is probably not correct as God knew what her choices would be and things went as He willed along those lines. God’s grace is available to us all, and the more we accept that grace into our lives the more it helps us along the way. Let us also not forget this was a singular grace, unique in form in regards to Mary.

 

[Miserere_Mei]

But it’s all just a glorified theory with no basis in tradition!

 

[thistle]

But it’s all just a glorified theory with no basis in tradition!

As a Catholic you are obliged to believe it. If you don’t that is heresy.

 

[Jennifer_J]

These teachings about Mary are really about Jesus. Jesus is true God and true Man. Mary must be free from original sin because she must carry God within her (like the old Ark of the Covenant, she becomes the New Ark of the Covenant). Because of her need to be saved “before hand”, she is, as the New Eve, able to do the Will of God perfectly. She is able to say Yes to God and No to sin. She has something special about her, don’t you think?

 

[MonkeyTape]

But it’s all just a glorified theory with no basis in tradition!

The quote I provided was from about 388AD, how far back must something go to have a basis in Tradition?

While, as a Catholic, you are obligated to believe it I understand that someone must also satisfy their intellect. I always give my assent while seeking to understand.

Jennifer was saying in a response to this that Mary had to be immaculate in order to carry Our Lord in her womb. I doubt it was a matter of necessity, but rather a matter of what was fitting. Our Lord told The Baptist that it was fitting that He be baptized. Likewise it was certainly fitting that Mary be conceived without stain of Original Sin.