Immigration, Romans and Rot

[Anduril11623]

I think there is something missing from the immigration debate…very simply, if this were still a strong, moral nation, we would not be concerned about immigrants like we are now, since it would be most likely they would be seeking to emulate and assimilate, much like barbarians sought Roman citizenship to be a part of Roman greatness. But now, with a society which is preoccupied with self-gratification in the forms of sex, spending and sloth, people have a very real fear that they will be displaced by those coming to America, like the Goths, Germans, etc, displaced Romans and settled Roman lands for their own use.

I mean, we kill a million babies a year through abortion, we tolerate vile sexuality in the name of fairness, we throw our elders in dumps to let them rot until death, we bomb people we don’t like, etc. How can we pretend to hold a moral high ground on much of anything lately? And how can we pretend to still be a strong, healthy, vibrant society that anyone would really want to assimilate themselves into? (aside from economically)

I’ll welcome corrections to my views, but this is how I see it lately.

Anduril

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Anduril11623
And how can we pretend to still be a strong, healthy, vibrant society that anyone would really want to assimilate themselves into? (aside from economically)

I’ve been asking this question for years.
I’m surprised the minions of* “America right or wrong” *haven’t bitten on this.
And you are correct, it IS a pretense.
One day the coffee aroma is going to be so strong that no one will be able to ignore it any longer.

 

[a_priori]

I think there is something missing from the immigration debate…very simply, if this were still a strong, moral nation, we would not be concerned about immigrants like we are now, since it would be most likely they would be seeking to emulate and assimilate, much like barbarians sought Roman citizenship to be a part of Roman greatness. But now, with a society which is preoccupied with self-gratification in the forms of sex, spending and sloth, people have a very real fear that they will be displaced by those coming to America, like the Goths, Germans, etc, displaced Romans and settled Roman lands for their own use.

I mean, we kill a million babies a year through abortion, we tolerate vile sexuality in the name of fairness, we throw our elders in dumps to let them rot until death, we bomb people we don’t like, etc. How can we pretend to hold a moral high ground on much of anything lately? And how can we pretend to still be a strong, healthy, vibrant society that anyone would really want to assimilate themselves into? (aside from economically)

I agree completely. We are living a fiction.

 

[Hastrman]

Feh. That might be a compelling argument…if it bore any relation to the actual historical events. Except it doesn’t. The Roman Empire fell by becoming too dependent on new conquest, not by any “Barbarian invasion.”

For the love of God, don’t bring up Alaric. Alaric was a Roman general who was passed over for promotion–he wanted to be Magister Milites, basically head of the Joint Chiefs. He got together his unit (called the Visigoths much as the 69th infantry is still called the Irish) and took the capital, put his own emperor on the throne, and got his post. End of story. He hated and despised barbarians; barbarians were vermin it was his job to exterminate.

The lie of the barbarian invasions comes from Gibbon, who was steeped in the preposterous race theories of his era.

 

[Anduril11623]

Well, let’s clarify some things here.

First of all, I was trying to address the situation as it currently exists in America and find some historical precedence for the thinking of people in this country as it regards immigration. I think that “racism” itself is too easy an answer, as we have elements of Mexican society in our own culture – after all, a large number of people in this nation are coreligionists; we eat a lot of Mexican food and hispanic women are often considered to be a standard of beauty. (of course, this parallels Roman adoption of “barbarian fashions” later in the Empire) I believe it largely stems from people in America understanding on at least a gut level that are institutions are failing and our position of dominance is slipping.

Second, I didn’t intend to bring up Alaric. However, the Goths had been allowed to settle on Roman territory as a homogeneous group, not assimilated as previous barbarians in Roman lands had been. Regardless of whatever personal motivation Alaric had, the condition probably still would have existed that Rome was seen to be weakened by that time and ripe for plunder (after all, if you have to comprise a majority of your military with foreigners, how strong are you really?). If not him, someone else.

Third, I am aware of Gibbon’s dislike of both Judaism and Christianity. I am however unaware how this reconciles with the common attitude of the time regarding the “noble savage” – after all, the barbarians he would be writing about were often direct ancestors of the present-day people in Europe. Little hard to condemn your forebears if you have a shred of pride in your culture, a staple of the colonial era when people were trying to justify economic and military conquest of less technologically advanced cultures.

Fourth, barbarians did indeed displace Roman authority, if not the Romans themselves. The genesis of the medieval power structures came about when the landowners quit paying taxes to Rome and started paying protection money to the barbarians on the border. I think it’s not unreasonable that a similar situation will occur, sooner or later, on our own borders.

Fifth, Rome also fell because of economic weakness. There have been some good pieces written on this, but as I’m at the university right now, not at my home computer, I can’t give you the text or the links. Again, we have the same weakening factor in our own society, with the devaluation of the dollar, the failing housing market, etc.

I would like to add that I am sorry you chose to respond in such an aggressive and patronizing tone and I would hope that we can continue this discussion in a more productive manner.

 

[Hastrman]

Third, I am aware of Gibbon’s dislike of both Judaism and Christianity. I am however unaware how this reconciles with the common attitude of the time regarding the “noble savage” – after all, the barbarians he would be writing about were often direct ancestors of the present-day people in Europe. Little hard to condemn your forebears if you have a shred of pride in your culture, a staple of the colonial era when people were trying to justify economic and military conquest of less technologically advanced cultures.

He wasn’t condemning his forebears! He was saying that the robust Germanic people (not yet called a Herrenvolk, but getting there) marched roughshod over the weak, decadent Latins. This was the standard claptrap of the English schools, since it justified their alliance with the thoroughly evil Prussian Empire against the French Republic and the rather-less-evil Hapsburg Empire. The same idea had been running through English thought at least since the Hanoverian Succession (when it suddenly became much more important to like Germans).

Fourth, barbarians did indeed displace Roman authority, if not the Romans themselves. The genesis of the medieval power structures came about when the landowners quit paying taxes to Rome and started paying protection money to the barbarians on the border. I think it’s not unreasonable that a similar situation will occur, sooner or later, on our own borders.

Actually the power structures of the middle ages came into being when the Auxiliaries, originally barbarian in recruitment but already long Roman in culture, took over in name what they had long held in fact: the power of the Pallatium or seat of power. The system that would become feudalism was a mix of barbarian customs with Roman practice, but the latter predominated. The title being hereditary by male primogeniture was barbaric, but the taxation was still largely Roman, as were the systems for record-keeping, bureaucracy, and levying troops. The organization of land in the countryside arose from the devolution of the villas–whence Village and Villein, Old French for a serf.

Finally, your fifth point agrees with me. The specific economic weakness Rome fell by (in so much as it did fall, which has been exaggerated) was that it had become too dependent on new conquest for economic growth, which weakened its infrastructure.

I apologize for the tone of the last post, but I see this argument all the time, and it’s usually made by racists who know nothing about either Rome or the current immigration situation, like Pat Buchanan. It was a bit of jumping the gun on my part, rather like assuming any criticism of the Jews is anti-Semitism.

Mea culpa.

 

[Lance]

No one is at all concerned about immigration it is illegal immigration that we are and should be concerned about.

 

[theguidedheart]

I think there is something missing from the immigration debate…very simply, if this were still a strong, moral nation, we would not be concerned about immigrants like we are now, since it would be most likely they would be seeking to emulate and assimilate, much like barbarians sought Roman citizenship to be a part of Roman greatness. But now, with a society which is preoccupied with self-gratification in the forms of sex, spending and sloth, people have a very real fear that they will be displaced by those coming to America, like the Goths, Germans, etc, displaced Romans and settled Roman lands for their own use.

I mean, we kill a million babies a year through abortion, we tolerate vile sexuality in the name of fairness, we throw our elders in dumps to let them rot until death, we bomb people we don’t like, etc. How can we pretend to hold a moral high ground on much of anything lately? And how can we pretend to still be a strong, healthy, vibrant society that anyone would really want to assimilate themselves into? (aside from economically)

I’ll welcome corrections to my views, but this is how I see it lately.

Anduril

Agreed…we are killing ourselves by the minute with the bad choices we make, and we are too wrapped up into instant gratification to see into next week to realize the consequences.

Its depressing at least…