Immigration, TAXES, Education, etc

[cougarfan]

I read the previous posts on this and some of you were very quick to point out that ILLEGAL immigrants recieve free services for hospital care, school, and social services but do not pay into the system. Let me educatate a few of you…

I am from a family who migrated here from Mexico and under President Reagan was allowed to become a legal resident of this country after living here illegaly for 8 or so years. My parents, along with my brothers and sisters who could work, did, to support our lifestyle in this country. And let me tell you, when we did work, my parents filed their taxes because in those years, one could obtain a SSN and not be deported. YES… one could have an SSN number and not be a legal resident since the department of social security and immigration did not share paperwork and information. Since then, this has changed. But I digress…

My family had always paid their taxes… because unless one were paid under the table, one DIDNT HAVE AN OPTION. And this wasn’t just exclusive to our family but the other people who were illegal here that we knew. Those who didn’t have an SSN or TIN number and still worked under fake SSN numbers and such never did file in April because they knew they couldn’t. BUT their gross income reflected the loss in taxes. There are plenty of people who were paying into the system who will never see a penny back so to say that they are not paying taxes is a huge misconception. A lot of you would be amazed how much money is deducted and how much of it actually claimed. But I digress again… And those same ILLEGALS are paying the taxes on food, gasoline, property and a variety of other state/federal imposed taxes… as they should be and as we all did.

I attended a public school and graduated from a university with a bechelors degree. Because of President Regan, we were able to legalize our stay and apply for federal monies to afford a better education. Today, many of these children who are born here or were brought here (as infants, teens, etc…) are as bright as you and me but CAN’T continue to a 4 year school because existing immigration policies target them unfairly. If they did want to attend, they would have to pay as foreigners do (which is about 3-5 x more than what in-state tuition would cost), despite having attended a K-12 system in the USA.

To not be allowed to study and become a productive member of society is what infuriates me. Those who are lucky enough to find economic relief to continue to a post-secondary path will do so. The majority who can’t, are forced to enter field work, or other means of cheap labor to sustain their life. Everyone deserves a better life and my family, as many others, have poured their sweat and blood in this country to help us achieve what they couldn’t in their own. I am thankfrul to God and to this country because we were able to afford a new life here.

I guess what I am asking all of you to do is look at immigration from two sides. There are two issues and I am well aware of that but it can’t be wrong for a family or a single person to want a better life. And I will pray that our country find the right solution that can benefit everyone… as it should be done!

 

[TAS2000]

The argument of taxes aside, how is it unfair to say that ILLEGAL residents do not qualify for the same educational rate as LEGAL residents? I’d say that is completly fair. Go through the process of becoming LEGAL, then they’ll qualify. Just because they got through the cracks up until higher education doesn’t justify a reason we should let them keep slipping through the cracks.

For example, I can’t imagine the electric company discovering an illegal tap on their system that someone installed and that person claiming since its been in place for 20 years already, they have to let me continue the illegal practice.

 

[cougarfan]

fair arguement but why are the children being punished when the majority of them assisted our K-12 system… and dont forget, they pretty much have frozen anyone trying to legalize now for quite some time. So the system if failing the needs of the students who are hurt because of the actions of the parents.

I dont think you or many non immigrants have a clue as to the barriers the USA has imposed on HISPANICS vs other immigrants because the majority are from latin based origins.

 

[TAS2000]

Not sure I understand…

why are the children being punished when the majority of them assisted our K-12 system

How did these children assist the current k-12 system? And how is it punishment to force them to follow the LEGAL system rather than let them take something they aren’t legally entitled to?

the system if failing the needs of the students who are hurt because of the actions of the parents.

Ok, why should the system be made to fit needs of people that aren’t a PART of the system? Shouldn’t you be complaining that their OWN country’s system is failing them?

Isn’t it the fault of the parent for setting a child up such a thing? You can argue that it is worth it for the better lifestyle the child will have, but obviously this “better” life also has a downside, namely, being illegal, risking deportation, and not being eligable for higher education.

I’m not saying the system is good, but it isn’t the only problem. the people themselevs are at least as much to blame as the system trying to deal with them.

 

[Kielbasi]

The problem with illegal aliens is that they aren’t screened before they come into the country.

My grandparents came through Ellis Island, there they were checked out to make sure that they didn’t have diseases or disorders which would make them a burden on the taxpayers. Their sponsors were checked out and if they were unable to support themselves, they would be required to do that (instead of the taxpayers). They were also checked out to make sure they weren’t criminals.

There is a real problem with illegals coming in with HIV or who knows what else, and then relying on welfare. And its a statistical fact that 29% of the federal prison population are illegals.

The key to the illegal alien problem is to get a fence up on America’s border and establish a thorough screening process for those who want to come here.

 

[shs-aod]

Kielbasi:

There is a real problem with illegals coming in with HIV or who knows what else, and then relying on welfare. And its a statistical fact that 29% of the federal prison population are illegals.

Cite?

What is the number of federal prisoners in proportion to the total numbers in state and municipal prisons?

Could it possibly be that the number of “illegals” in federal prisons are disproportionately represented in relation to the total prison population?

The key to the illegal alien problem is to get a fence up on America’s border and establish a thorough screening process for those who want to come here.

Sure. So much for that “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” detritus we learned at the foot of Sr. Mary Whoever in our formative years…

I love the smell of ‘compassionate conservativism’ in the morning

 

[wabrams]

Could it possibly be that the number of “illegals” in federal prisons are disproportionately represented in relation to the total prison population?

Probably not; it’s not the easiest thing in the world to get into the federal pens. I venture to say far more are in the municipal and county jails due to being picked up for crimes like driving w/o a license, trespassing, public drunkeness, etc.; no different than most people in those jails.

 

[cougarfan]

TAS2000:

Not sure I understand… How did these children assist the current k-12 system?

Most of them were brought here for a better life because their country did fail them. So they entered the K-12 system as a means to fit in to a new society and learn what it is citizens of this country are expected to learn. In most cases, the difference between immigrant children and yourself are fairly small. But the barriers imposed on them for being of an illegal status is much bigger

And how is it punishment to force them to follow the LEGAL system rather than let them take something they aren’t legally entitled to?

**Are you kidding me? You really dont see anything wrong with forcing our youth, many who are scholars in their own way, to revert to field work and factory jobs because their isnt a law that allows them to finance an education. If an education to provide for and add to society is a crime… then we have failed them. I am willing, as a LEGAL resident to help pay for those who need our help. Are we not blessed by the same God who provides for us when we are in need? So we turn a blind eye to the children and students who need this assistance because their families were in desperate need to give them more? **

Ok, why should the system be made to fit needs of people that aren’t a PART of the system?
**
THEY ARE a part of the system. What the law says is they are illegals. But if you ask them, the majority of them would say, I am an American who is labeled illegal… not by MY choice but because my parents wanted better for me. This is why it is crucial our government aligne laws to help them transition to a system they are already paying taxes into and helping grow.**

Shouldn’t you be complaining that their OWN country’s system is failing them?

You bet… ALL those countries are at fault because the USA provided hope and light when their own country couldn’t. Let’s face it, the USA is a great country and the amount of work, freedom, and liberty makes this place a heaven for those seeking the aforementioned qualities. America started from immigrants. This country was founded on such a movement and to negate this freedom to our youth who have worked hard to achieve status amongst their peers is what upsets me. If you want to fine and deport the parents for trying… fine… go ahead. But a strong follower of Christ SHOULD want to explore all avenues that help those acclamate into a new system.

Isn’t it the fault of the parent for setting a child up such a thing?

Yep… wanting a better life is a big crime. I am sure Christ would have frowned at this idea.

You can argue that it is worth it for the better lifestyle the child will have, but obviously this “better” life also has a downside, namely, being illegal, risking deportation, and not being eligable for higher education.

And guess what… they know ONE immediate downside… and that is the fear of deportation. But what our govt. has essentially done is decide which citizens of various countries get first dibs at legalizing into US Citizens. Guess where Latin American countries fit in? Dead last… because they tend to be the majority who flee.

I’m not saying the system is good, but it isn’t the only problem. the people themselevs are at least as much to blame as the system trying to deal with them.

I agree… the system isnt good. What irks me the most is everyone wants their cheap produce, food items, etc… well, guess who does those jobs that hardly anyone would want to touch, unless they were paid more and given benefits? I am sure you know where I am going with this. Immigrants are the reason why America has such a great price on the simple commodities we eat and purchase. And the Govt. knows this. THE FARMERS KNOW THIS… and they HIRE them because they too want to profit in cheap labor. The economy of the USA depends on immigrants. Finding a system where everyone can agree will never happen. But we can start today by thanking all those who bust their tails to want to make it right. And todays news doesnt sound promising for anyone. The bill to help is being blocked again. Sigh…

 

[geojack]

Kielbasi:

The problem with illegal aliens is that they aren’t screened before they come into the country.

My grandparents came through Ellis Island, there they were checked out to make sure that they didn’t have diseases or disorders which would make them a burden on the taxpayers. Their sponsors were checked out and if they were unable to support themselves, they would be required to do that (instead of the taxpayers). They were also checked out to make sure they weren’t criminals.

There is a real problem with illegals coming in with HIV or who knows what else, and then relying on welfare. And its a statistical fact that 29% of the federal prison population are illegals.

The key to the illegal alien problem is to get a fence up on America’s border and establish a thorough screening process for those who want to come here.

If we had fences on the Canadian border alot of people with Eastern European backgrounds would not have gotten in 100 years ago. Sneaking into this country is nothing new. Different nationalities at different times on different borders. Alot of people just assume that their relatives came in at Ellis Island. (not saying that you are). It is easy to do a search.

 

[TAS2000]

cougarfan:

Most of them were brought here for a better life because their country did fail them. So they entered the K-12 system as a means to fit in to a new society and learn what it is citizens of this country are expected to learn. In most cases, the difference between immigrant children and yourself are fairly small. But the barriers imposed on them for being of an illegal status is much bigger

I still do not see how youclaim this assists (aids) the system. I see that these children BENEFITED from the system, not assisted it.

cougarfan:

Are you kidding me? You really dont see anything wrong with forcing our youth, many who are scholars in their own way, to revert to field work and factory jobs because their isnt a law that allows them to finance an education.

No, I’m not kidding. First of all, OUR youth are legal citzens. And we are not FORCING them to take any particular job. We ARE forcing them to pay the correct price for their education rather than simpling GIVING them the same rate that a legal resident would pay. My brother got decent grades, and wanted to go to college, but my dad got laid off, and being middle class white folks, he qualified for $0 of aid. So he drives a truck for a living.

cougarfan:

If an education to provide for and add to society is a crime… then we have failed them. I am willing, as a LEGAL resident to help pay for those who need our help. Are we not blessed by the same God who provides for us when we are in need? So we turn a blind eye to the children and students who need this assistance because their families were in desperate need to give them more?

That’s why we have scholarship funds. If you have been blessed and want to share, set up a scholarship and you can set whatever requirements you want. But the government and ALL taxpayers should not be required to provide benefits for those that aren’t citzens.

cougarfan:

THEY ARE a part of the system. What the law says is they are illegals.

Sorry, I’m not going to give you this one. Legal citzens are part of the system, and the laws should be written to protect and help them. Illegals are people who are not, and have never been part of the system. If you want to be part of the system, become a citizen.

cougarfan:

Yep… wanting a better life is a big crime. I am sure Christ would have frowned at this idea.

Ok, now you’re just breaking down into emotional appeals, that have no bearing. Wanting a better life is fine, but there is a big difference between earning it and just taking it. You want it? Become a citizen, get a sponser, follow the rules. Or work in your own contry to change things there and get that better life. We all want it, we just don’t all break the law to try to get it.

You are right in one thing though, if we didn’t have 11 million illegal aliens willing to work for substandard wages the avergae wage in this country would be higher. I think that’s a good thing. The economy will not colapse. Everything will cost a little more, but people will be making more, so it evens out. We might even get back to being able to support a family decently on a single income. Back in the days of the labor movements, and with migrant farm workers, Chavez and his group fought hard to get fair wages. One of the things they did was to turn in illegals. THEY knew that the illegals would bring down the wages and hurt their way of life.

Personnaly, I think free trade with countries who are not on the same financial level as the US hurts our economy. I see all the tech jobs being shipped over to India or China. I see all the unskilled jobs being taken by illegals, or shipped out to the third world. What’s left for the people that actually live here? Our laws should be written and enforced to protect our legal citizens. And private charities should be used for any who feel the need to aid citzens not of the country. NOT our tax dollars.

 

[cougarfan]

My brother got decent grades, and wanted to go to college, but my dad got laid off, and being middle class white folks, he qualified for $0 of aid. So he drives a truck for a living.

**Most of us were born to lower-middle income class families. Most of us who did attend college did so on our merit. If your brother wanted to attend a 4 year school, he could have taken out loans and worked while attending college to make it happen. Dont use this as an excuse as I and many other friends did this to get our education. Where there is a will, there is always a way. **

That’s why we have scholarship funds. If you have been blessed and want to share, set up a scholarship and you can set whatever requirements you want. But the government and ALL taxpayers should not be required to provide benefits for those that aren’t citzens.

I think you misunderstood or side stepped one of my points. A big leap for these illegal youth who are ready to move into post-secondary education is applying for loans based on the college tuition of in-state residents. Believe it or not, some states side with this issue and have lowered their cost of education to assist those students who “again” were not here to break laws but brought here by parents who did. You are trying to punish students by grouping them all as illegals and I am saying… help them become prominent members of society since they are already here and acculturated into this system. Luckily, not everyone sees it the same way you do.

Sorry, I’m not going to give you this one. Legal citzens are part of the system, and the laws should be written to protect and help them. Illegals are people who are not, and have never been part of the system. If you want to be part of the system, become a citizen.

**
Again, do you think the majority of these students and familes aren’t trying? Most that I know submitted applications long ago to get their legalization process started. The majority were put on hold after 9/11. Since then, this issue had been placed on the back-burner.**

Wanting a better life is fine, but there is a big difference between earning it and just taking it. You want it? Become a citizen, get a sponser, follow the rules. Or work in your own contry to change things there and get that better life. We all want it, we just don’t all break the law to try to get it.

**Yes, it is so simple. If it were the case, AMERICA wouldn’t be the melting pot is started out to be. The only ILLEGAL thing most have done is shown up to work and provide for their family. Again, the majority, despite being illegal pay taxes and want to be legal. The system isnt making this easy for them and with the bickering at the white house… well, it will be a long time before this gets resolved. **

Back in the days of the labor movements, and with migrant farm workers, Chavez and his group fought hard to get fair wages. One of the things they did was to turn in illegals. THEY knew that the illegals would bring down the wages and hurt their way of life.

I seriously want to know where you found this information from or at least provide a link that claims what you just stated. Chavez wasnt out there playing the role of immigration and I seriously doubt you will find any proof of this. His focus was getting farm workers fair wages and away from the pesticides that were killing them and their families.

I see all the unskilled jobs being taken by illegals, or shipped out to the third world.

Because if they weren’t, they wouldnt be accomplished by your everyday citizen. Why do you think the USA set up Braceros programs in the 20’s-70’-s? The work wasnt getting done by US Citizens. You really think farmers are going to want to increase wages and benefits, especially with the way trading has gone these last 10 years?

What’s left for the people that actually live here? Our laws should be written and enforced to protect our legal citizens. And private charities should be used for any who feel the need to aid citzens not of the country. NOT our tax dollars.

You are mis-informed. Illegal citizens for this country PAY into the same system of tax dollars… please dont refute this claim (they buy gas, pay sales tax, state tax and income tax). It is a proven fact and I will be happy to find you links that support my claim. A good portion of them never see a dime back because they leave the country after a certain time and use this earned income as a means to provide for their own. So where does their tax dollars go?

 

[movingmom]

OK, maybe I’m confused, maybe I’m ignorant. Illegal immigrants pay taxes? What percentage of them pay taxes? They pay a sum equal to the wage earners that are legal citizens? Please cite this info, I am in need of education.

 

[shs-aod]

movingmom:

OK, maybe I’m confused, maybe I’m ignorant. Illegal immigrants pay taxes? What percentage of them pay taxes? They pay a sum equal to the wage earners that are legal citizens? Please cite this info, I am in need of education.

Well, at the very least, illegal immigrants are also consumers, so they are subject to sales tax, gasoline taxes, and excise taxes. Except for the small number who work “under the table” for cash, they’re also paying payroll with-holding and social security taxes just like any other legal employee. Although many may be eligible for Earned Income Credits and Income Tax Refunds, most would not “telegraph” their illegal status to the IRS by filing tax-returns which would trigger these refunds. Whatever is with-held on their paychecks over and above their actual tax liability is forfeited to the government.

At least on a percentage basis, they pay the same rate of Income Tax and Social Security-Medicare payroll taxes as any other employee, legal or otherwise.

 

[AmyS]

shs-aod:

Well, at the very least, illegal immigrants are also consumers, so they are subject to sales tax, gasoline taxes, and excise taxes. Except for the small number who work “under the table” for cash, they’re also paying payroll with-holding and social security taxes just like any other legal employee. Although many may be eligible for Earned Income Credits and Income Tax Refunds, most would not “telegraph” their illegal status to the IRS by filing tax-returns which would trigger these refunds. Whatever is with-held on their paychecks over and above their actual tax liability is forfeited to the government.

At least on a percentage basis, they pay the same rate of Income Tax and Social Security-Medicare payroll taxes as any other employee, legal or otherwise.

Just out of curiosity… And, no offenses intended. How do you know the percentage of illeagals that work under the table? How can you assume that the amount is small? Is there a rate to measure it?

 

[Viki59]

I know several non-hispanic people who get paid “under the table”,( which I think is wrong.) But I’d bet it’s roughly the same percentage of undocumented people and Americans who work under the table.

I got my income tax refund recently. Undocumented workers don’t get any refunds, they just have to pay whatever taxes their employers take out. So we can’t talk about “our” taxes providing services for undocumented people.

 

[gilliam]

Because of the way the system works today, most illegal aliens don’t pay taxes. That is about 12 million people.

 

[TAS2000]

Cougarfan, sorry, but I am very busy this week, and probably won’t get to respond thoroughly. I’ll try to get more detailed next week. I think that a lot of people remeber Mr. Chavez as an advocate for Hispanic rights, since he worked so hard at getting fair wages for migrant farm workers, who were mostly Hispanic. However, he was an American, and was actually working for AMERICAN workers rights. He knew that illegals were bringing down the wages, and worked very hard to stop it.

In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valley to the border of Mexico to protest growers’ use of illegal aliens as temporary replacement workers during a strike. Joining him on the march were both a Reverend Ralph Abernathy and a U.S. Senator Walter Mondale. Chávez and the UFW would often report suspected illegal aliens who served as temporary replacement workers as well as who refused to unionize to the INS

In his prime, Chavez fought constantly against illegal immigration. He frequently complained that the Immigration & Naturalization Service wasn’t tough enough. When Chavez would lead a strike, the grower would send trucks across the Mexican border, load them up with scabs, and race back to the Central Valley in the dead of night. Chavez even offered his UFW staffers to the INS to serve as volunteer border guards to keep Mexicans from sneaking into California. As Ruben Navarrette Jr. reported in the Arizona Republic: (8/31/97)

“Cesar Chavez, a labor leader intent on protecting union membership, was as effective a surrogate for the INS as ever existed. Indeed, Chavez and the United Farm Workers Union he headed routinely reported, to the INS, for deportation, suspected illegal immigrants who served as strikebreakers or refused to unionize.”

One more thing, to some others here, you can control how much taxes your employer takes out by selecting the lowest rate, which any smart illegal would do since he knew he wouldn’t get it back.

 

[cougarfan]

gilliam:

Because of the way the system works today, most illegal aliens don’t pay taxes. That is about 12 million people.

Can you educate us on how you know this? How does that system work and how is it you know first hand?

 

[cougarfan]

AmyS:

Just out of curiosity… And, no offenses intended. How do you know the percentage of illeagals that work under the table? How can you assume that the amount is small? Is there a rate to measure it?

Amy that is a good question. I dont know that there exists such a model but from personal experience, much of my extended family and some friends who did come here illegaly worked jobs like everyone else. <<Let us not forget that SSN numbers and TIN numbers were given despite being illegal. Today, one could be assigned a TIN number for working only.>> So few ever had to worrry about under the table wages because they could technically provide proof of a SSN/TIN number. On the behalf of the employer, they should had been asking for proof of citizenship or legality status. But few ever really pushed this because they knew they were getting cheap labor from these immigrants. Many immigrants still viewed the Social Security Admin. offices as a part of INS and prefered to purchase fake SSN numbers. A good portion of my extended family and friends (75%) had false SSN numbers that they paid a hacker to give them. When tax reporting came to be, the same % never filed once so as to not trigger a false id’ed - SSN letter.

Again, first hand knowledge is all I have. If there does exist a model, I am sure it would be close to what I just described. Perhpaps someone else here knows how to google such documents or research?

 

[Geldain]

shs-aod:

Cite?

Federal prision stats

Hispanic: 60,094 (31.7 %)

United States: 137,365 (72.5 %)
Mexico: 32,014 (16.9 %)
Colombia: 3,423 (1.8 %)
Cuba: 1,702 (0.9 %)
Dominican Republic: 3,336 (1.8 %)
Other/Unknown: 11,614 (6.1 %)

So much for that “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” detritus we learned at the foot of Sr. Mary Whoever in our formative years…

Not really. Rules were in place in the past regarding legal immigration as they are now.

I love the smell of ‘compassionate conservativism’ in the morning

So you’d prefer we permit the violation of our immigration laws? Not a good idea from where I sit.