Importance of Mary's Perpetual Virginity

[Memaw]

Ahah! The “Siblings of God” bit makes sense. But still, I’m not talking about having other children, I’m talking about marital relations.

Isn’t that being a little presumptuous and a bit nosy?? Would you ask someone if they had martial relations after they had their first child. This is an entirely different situation. Way above our level of thinking. God doesn’t tell us every detail of HIS plans. Trust HIM, HE knows what hes doing.God Bless, Memaw

 

[Good_Fella]

This thread is not so much about “how do we know she remained a virgin after Christ’s birth” but “why does this matter?” What are the implications of this fact on Christianity, and why is it so important that her perpetual virginity be acknowledged?

Those who acknowledge it have a better understanding of God’s character and thus a deeper faith in Him.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Elaine13]

In my previous post, I explained that there was no Aramaic word for “cousin”; therefore, these relatives were simply referred to as “brothers” or “sisters”. Still, it can be had to accept the idea that Jesus was an only child when it goes against the grain of what you’ve believed all your life. So, let’s take a look at the verse that you gave us above.

Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?” (Matthew 13:55)

1. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

1. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

1. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.
2. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.

“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

1. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

1. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.

You’ve presented quite a lot of information, Randy. I’m glad I’ve got a week off work…will need a little time to reply, but it will come.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’ve presented quite a lot of information, Randy. I’m glad I’ve got a week off work…will need a little time to reply, but it will come.

These threads get a little crazy, but take your time, and I’ll be happy to answer any follow-up questions that come to mind.

 

[TimothyH]

Ahah! The “Siblings of God” bit makes sense. But still, I’m not talking about having other children, I’m talking about marital relations.

Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. For Mary to then have had relations with another means that she is a promiscuous, adulterous sinner. The incarnate Second Person of the Trinity - Jesus - cannot be the offspring of a promiscuous sinner. It is as simple as that.

It comes from the Jewish idea of how women become pregnant. Women are seen as the earth and men plant the seed. The seed grows in the woman until it “bears fruit” in the form of a child. The Holy Spirit planted the seed in Mary and she bore fruit in Jesus. For another man to have then “planted his seed” makes Mary into a woman who sleeps around. It is simply not possible for Jesus to be the son of a loose woman and the Son of the Father at the same time.

-Tim-

 

[Good_Fella]

Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. For Mary to then have had relations with another means that she is a promiscuous, adulterous sinner. The incarnate Second Person of the Trinity - Jesus - cannot be the offspring of a promiscuous sinner. It is as simple as that.

It comes from **the Jewish idea **of how women become pregnant. Women are seen as the earth and men plant the seed. The seed grows in the woman until it “bears fruit” in the form of a child. The Holy Spirit planted the seed in Mary and she bore fruit in Jesus. For another man to have then “planted his seed” makes Mary into a woman who sleeps around. It is simply not possible for Jesus to be the son of a loose woman and the Son of the Father at the same time. -Tim-

In principle, Joseph would have violated the moral precept of the Mosaic Law by having his own offspring in marriage after his wife had already conceived a child in union with another person. For this reason he chose to divorce Mary quietly before the angel came to him in a dream and explained what had actually happened. Afterwards, everyone assumed that Jesus was '“the” son of the carpenter (cf. Mt 13:55).

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Memaw]

Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. For Mary to then have had relations with another means that she is a promiscuous, adulterous sinner. The incarnate Second Person of the Trinity - Jesus - cannot be the offspring of a promiscuous sinner. It is as simple as that.

It comes from the Jewish idea of how women become pregnant. Women are seen as the earth and men plant the seed. The seed grows in the woman until it “bears fruit” in the form of a child. The Holy Spirit planted the seed in Mary and she bore fruit in Jesus. For another man to have then “planted his seed” makes Mary into a woman who sleeps around. It is simply not possible for Jesus to be the son of a loose woman and the Son of the Father at the same time.

-Tim-

That’s another far fetched imaginary idea. It has absolutely nothing to do with the truth. Please lets just stay with what God revealed to us and leave the rest up to HIM. I do believe HE knows what he is doing at all times. God Bless, Memaw

 

[TimothyH]

That’s another far fetched imaginary idea. It has absolutely nothing to do with the truth. Please lets just stay with what God revealed to us and leave the rest up to HIM. I do believe HE knows what he is doing at all times. God Bless, Memaw

Excuse me Memaw, but the Jewish/Hebrew view of woman/seed is well established historical fact and mentioned several times in scripture. The doctrine of Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit is established Catholic doctrine. I assure you that neither are a product of my imagination. St. Francis of Assisi called Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

I am quite taken aback by your remarks.

-Tim-

 

[Memaw]

Excuse me Memaw, but the Jewish/Hebrew view of woman/seed is well established historical fact and mentioned several times in scripture. The doctrine of Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit is established Catholic doctrine. I assure you that neither are a product of my imagination. St. Francis of Assisi called Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

I am quite taken aback by your remarks.

-Tim-

That’s not the part I disagree with, but to say a married woman would be a loose woman , any married woman, if she had children by her husband ??? Mary and Joseph’s marriage was not the same as any other marriage and we shouldn’t even compare it to any other!. Mary was the Spiritual Spouse of the Holy Spirit, it had NOTHING to do with sex. God Bless, Memaw

 

[zz912]

It’s important for a number of reasons:

1. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark is pure and untouched by man. It carries within it the Bread of Heaven, the High Priest, and the Word of God.
2. Mary is the Tabernacle of the Lord. She is reserved unto God. She is consecrated and holy. For her and Joseph to have carnal relations would be to take something reserved to God and use it for regular purposes. This is NEVER to be done.
3. It would violate the prophesy in the OT about the gate the Lord enters through. No man shall enter by the gate the Lord enters.

 

[Elaine13]

These threads get a little crazy, but take your time, and I’ll be happy to answer any follow-up questions that come to mind.

Thanks for your patience. After doing much research, I feel that the shortest, most concise response can be made through this link:
biblestudies.net/whowrotejames.html

The downside of that link is that it doesn’t always rightfully distinguish the difference between the original 12 Apostles of Christ and subsequent apostles by the upper and lower case 'A’s".

Another place to look:
gotquestions.org/life-James.html

To me these seem to make sense.

 

[TimothyH]

That’s not the part I disagree with, but to say a married woman would be a loose woman , any married woman, if she had children by her husband ??? Mary and Joseph’s marriage was not the same as any other marriage and we shouldn’t even compare it to any other!. Mary was the Spiritual Spouse of the Holy Spirit, it had NOTHING to do with sex. God Bless, Memaw

I’m sorry if my post was unclear.

The point I was trying to make was not that a woman who had children by her husband would be a loose woman but that a woman who had children by two persons while they were both alive would be considered a loose woman. The Holy Spirit is a person.

It is important to recognize that Mary did conceive a son by the Holy Spirit and virginity does have to do with sex. Under the mosaic law, a woman who conceived a child by a man other than her spouse while her spouse was still alive was considered and adulterer.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is a sign of her sinlessness, a sign that she remained chaste, completely united to her spouse the Holy Spirit through her whole life.

-Tim-

 

[YADA]

Thanks for your patience. After doing much research, I feel that the shortest, most concise response can be made through this link:
biblestudies.net/whowrotejames.html

The downside of that link is that it doesn’t always rightfully distinguish the difference between the original 12 Apostles of Christ and subsequent apostles by the upper and lower case 'A’s".

Another place to look:
gotquestions.org/life-James.html

To me these seem to make sense.

these sites may make sense to you because they play to your personal interpretation of scripture passages. Few passages are actually discussed - mostly in isolation, without any real context. There is no support from early Christian writings nor Jewish and Christian cultural context.

Your first link has an entire page where Catholic Doctrine and the history of the Christianity is misrepresented …* but biased by surely.

If this represents ‘much research’ to you and is the best you can list … I feel really sad for you.

Let me suggest that you read the writings of early Christian’s for yourself - entire books … Jurgens’ has a great 3 volume set of the extant Christian writings … read some objective history …and don’t fear reading Catholic sources - I read non-Catholics … Do not just read non-Catholic ones and biased non-Catholics at that … Do judge for yourself what the writers are saying and read the scriptures along with them.

From my personal experience and interactions with people moving from Protestantism to Catholicism and from Catholicism to Protestantism … most of those moving from the Protestant perspective do so with a great love of Christ, respect for their initial faith tradition but in searching for Truth, a closer union / relationship / love of and with Christ and a critical look at the history of Christianity - become Catholic … Those leaving the Catholic Church are usually poorly catechized [sadly ] **and **are usually upset of some perceived wrong related to some moral issue that they take great exception to and where they feel persecuted by Church …hot button moral issues; those related to sexual relations like pre-marital sex, abortion / artificial birth control, remarriage after divorce, homosexual unions, etc …

There are many protestant ministers who have moved to the Catholic Church - which for many means they loose their vocation - their jobs, their income … enough of them that they have a support group that has existed for over a decade … Why would these very educated men do that?

Read about John Henry Newman [who set out to write a history of Christianity in order to prove Catholicism wrong and in stead became a Catholic], Dr. Scott Hahn, Allen Hunt, Steven Ray, Marcus Grodi …

Perhaps listen to some of your former co-religionists talk about their faith journeys here ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp*

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks for your patience. After doing much research, I feel that the shortest, most concise response can be made through this link:
biblestudies.net/whowrotejames.html

To me these seem to make sense.

I looked at this one, and I think everything looks right from a quick reading. James the Lesser became the Bishop of Rome. My “biography” of this James looks like this:

James the Lesser/Younger
Son of Alpheus/Clopas and Mary
Brother of Joseph, Jude, Simon
“Brother of the Lord” (Mt 13:55, Mk 6:3, Gal. 2:19)
Bishop of Jerusalem

He was not the literal brother of Jesus since Mary never had sex with Joseph whom she married for “protection” from the young bucks in town who might not have respected or known of her desire to be fully consecrated to God.

James was thus a cousin of Jesus (since Joseph and Alphaeus were brothers), but since the Aramaic language has no word for “cousin” the authors of the NT thought of all relatives as “brothers”.

BTW - I’ve even read that the brothers, Alphaeus and Joseph, actually married two sisters - but this would mean that the family had two daughters named Mary…and that seems a little too much to believe.

 

[Memaw]

I’m sorry if my post was unclear.

The point I was trying to make was not that a woman who had children by her husband would be a loose woman but that a woman who had children by two persons while they were both alive would be considered a loose woman. The Holy Spirit is a person.

It is important to recognize that Mary did conceive a son by the Holy Spirit and virginity does have to do with sex. Under the mosaic law, a woman who conceived a child by a man other than her spouse while her spouse was still alive was considered and adulterer.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is a sign of her sinlessness, a sign that she remained chaste, completely united to her spouse the Holy Spirit through her whole life.

-Tim-

Thank you for clearing that up, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Good_Fella]

Thanks for your patience. After doing much research, I feel that the shortest, most concise response can be made through this link:
biblestudies.net/whowrotejames.html

The downside of that link is that it doesn’t always rightfully distinguish the difference between the original 12 Apostles of Christ and subsequent apostles by the upper and lower case 'A’s".

Another place to look:
gotquestions.org/life-James.html

To me these seem to make sense.

*Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days; but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother. *
Galatians 1, 18-19

The term apostle may indeed apply to any disciple or follower of Christ. But given the context in the above passage it refers to those who belonged to the Twelve, the college of the apostles, of which Peter (Cephas) and James were members. This James who Paul mentions is acknowleged to be an apostle in the same capacity as Peter is. Thus when Paul went to Jerusalem, he saw just two of the Twelve, namely Peter and James the Less, the bishop of Jerusalem. He did not see any other of the apostles who belonged to the Twelve except James. Ten of the Twelve were not present when Paul went to Jerusalem.

I should add that sacred Scripture is not the sole medium of divine revelation. Since apostolic time, the Church has formulated her doctrines by way of sacred Tradition, which the written word of God objectively confirms in its proper interpretation consonant with the unwritten word of God from which the former proceeds (cf. Lk 1:1-4; 1:34). We have sufficient proof from Tradition that Mary remained a virgin after she gave birth to Jesus. This evidence is found in a letter attributed to Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of the apostle John and well acquainted with the oral tradition.

"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord – three mysteries to be cried aloud – the which were wrought in the silence of God."

• Letter to the Ephesians, 19:1 [c.A.D 110]*

The bishop mentions three mysteries which were “hidden from the prince of this world”: Mary’s virginity (a state), the birth of her son, (an event), and the death of our Lord (an event). He doesn’t speak of only two mysteries: the virgin birth and death of Jesus (two events). So if Mary did have children by Joseph after the birth of Jesus, her virginity could no longer have been hidden from the devil. For, according to Ignatius, Satan had no idea of the incarnation and the full significance of our Lord’s death in God’s plan of salvation. The devil could only presume Jesus was ‘the’ son of the carpenter Joseph and the biological offspring of Mary. And if Mary did have other children besides Jesus in her marriage with Joseph, her virginity, mentioned without any qualification, could no longer be a hidden mystery. Mary’s virginal conception of Jesus (the conception of her Son) was an event. Her virginity is a state which could not be preserved if indeed she had other children besides Jesus. Ignatius probably learned about Mary’s perpetual virginal state from the spoken words of the apostle John himself.

This Marian tradition was infallibly and faithfully transmitted *ad finitum *by way of tradition to the following generation of the Catholic Church. It is apparent in the following excerpt written by Irenaeus in his apologetic defence of the Christological tradition of the Incarnation:

"Again, there are those who say, “He is a man, and who shall know him?” and, “I came unto the prophetess, and she bore a son, and His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God;” and those [of them] who proclaimed Him as Immanuel, [born] of the Virgin, exhibited the union of the Word of God with His own workmanship, [declaring] that the Word should become flesh, and the Son of God the Son of man (the pure One opening purely that pure womb which regenerates men unto God, and which He Himself made pure); and having become this which we also are, He [nevertheless] is the Mighty God, and possesses a generation which cannot be declared."
***Against Heresies, lV.33.11 [A.D.180] ***

Irenaeus seems to imply that if Mary had conceived children with the stain of original sin, her pure womb which was made pure by Jesus would have been defiled. Her womb was God’s holy sanctuary in the temple of her body, of she who is the New Ark of the Covenant. Mary’s womb regenerates men unto God, for from it came the living source of all grace. Mary is the New Eve, the spiritual mother of all the living. Her womb should not bear what might result to be bad fruit, the offspring of the serpent (cf. Gen. 3:15).

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Sandraaustin]

Thank you for clearing that up, God Bless, Memaw

I’m glad this was cleared up too, as I very much liked TimothyH’s earlier answer. You never know what will “click” for someone looking for the truth. Thank you both and Happy New Year!

 

[Good_Fella]

The point I was trying to make was not that a woman who had children by her husband would be a loose woman but that a woman who had children by two persons while they were both alive would be considered a loose woman. The Holy Spirit is a person.

It is important to recognize that Mary did conceive a son by the Holy Spirit and virginity does have to do with sex. Under the mosaic law, a woman who conceived a child by a man other than her spouse while her spouse was still alive was considered an adulteress.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is a sign of her sinlessness, a sign that she remained chaste, completely united to her spouse the Holy Spirit through her whole life.

“And I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, and in love, and in mercy.
I will betroth you to me in faithfulness; and you shall know the Lord.”
Hosea 2:19-20

For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
Isaiah 54, 5

Yes, mystically the relationship between God and Mary was redolent of a marriage just as the relationship between YHWH and Israel was. The OT frequently depicts Israel as God’s bride, who is expected to be pure and chaste in her nuptial relationship with Him, faithful and loving. It is God who espouses Israel, removing her from her lowly origin, her fornication and prostitution, and purifying her to be His worthy spouse. In Mary’s canticle of praise in the Gospel of Luke, 1:46-49, the evangelist portrays Mary as the personification of Daughter Zion, God’s faithful and chaste bride, specially prepared by God to bring the Messiah into the world. For this reason Israel was required to be a holy people separated from the people of the surrounding nations. And her marriage covenant with God stood on Israel’s steadfastness in love for Him above all other things. ‘You shall be holy to me; for I the Lord am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine’ (Lev. 20:26). In the OT, Israel is called an adulteress and a harlot for having unfaithfully worshipped the pagan gods of her neighbours and putting their idols above God. ‘She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce; yet her false sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot’ (Jer. 3, 8). Israel was God’s own possession. She belonged exclusively to Him by way of a covenant. Similarly, Mary was God’s own possession and belonged exclusively to Him. The “power of the Most High (resuth) overshadowed” her. Mary would have been an unfaithful bride to God if she renounced her covenant with Him by having children of her own out of a greater love for her earthly husband and the natural fruits of marriage. But Mary’s soul “magnified the Lord” and proclaimed His glory. Their was no room for idols in the fabric of her being. God always was her first love, and so she renounced all her natural and maternal rights in her covenant with God for His sake alone and in keeping with His precepts. Mary personified the true Israel in the spirit by keeping God’s laws firmly set in her heart and mind. It was because God desired to have a faithful and chaste spouse for Himself, separated from all the other Jewish women and the conventions of their people, that He sent the angel to a very young virgin whom He had prepared by His grace to be the mother of His only-Begotten Son.

He:

*'Like a lily among thorns
is my darling among the young women.

'A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse;
a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

She:

'My beloved is mine and I am his;

'My beloved spoke and said to me,
“Arise, my darling,
my beautiful one, come with me.
See! The winter is past;
the rains are over and gone.

He:

’ but my dove, my perfect one, is unique,
the only daughter of her mother,
the favorite of the one who bore her.
The young women saw her and called her blessed;
the queens and concubines praised her.

Friends:

‘Who is this that appears like the dawn,
fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
majestic as the stars in procession?’

The Songs of Solomon*

PAX
:heaven: