in a nut-shell

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mercifulJan

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Hi,
I’m glad to see a forum about veganism/vegetarianism - it is a part of social justice, the environment, emulating God’s compassionate character, stewardship (it was our first commission to care for God’s animals). Dominion does not mean domination. We have believed the twisted meaning that we are the center of the universe (instead of God) and that animals were made for us to use and abuse for OUR good.
As a staunch pro-lifer for the unborn, the elderly and anyone else, pro-lifers are becoming more and more aware that the Holy Spirit is also concerned about the billions of animals who suffer in factory farms. Hebrews 4:13 says that God will hold us accountable, yet we continue to not only be indifferent, but support this abuse by buying these animals and their products (dairy, eggs, leather, down, fur, etc.).
Since the Church continues to hide abusers of children (the latest Ireland news confirms this), why should the Church expose the abuse of billions of animals?
Someday we will be held accountable. As a convert, I’m concerned for Christ’s Church, His body. Are we truly His body? When one part suffers (which I believe we are grieving the heart, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), we all suffer. It’s time to proclaim that God has compassion on all He has made as Psalm 145:9 and elsewhere declares. Perhaps more people will stay within the Church knowing that we are serious about our faith.
A pro-lifer for all beings,
Jan Fredericks
Chairman, Catholic Concern for Animals-USA
 
Ignoring the fallacious attacks you’ve made against the Church, I’ll just say that vegetarianism is not a part of the Church’s social justice. The social justice of the Church, in relation to the enviornment, can be summed up as follows:
  • Respect for God’s creation
  • Using God’s creation as He has intended
  • Not unjustly harming animals
  • Not putting animal life above human life
There is nothing specific that the Church calls for, only just using reason and faith to understand our relationship with creation. We may eat animals and use them as shelter, but we may not kill them for sport or other unjustly reasons. But if an animal attacks a person, we may kill the animal, in defense of the man, because human life is above animal life. For God has given all of creation to man, not man to creation, just as He made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath.
 
Actually, He did create the animals, and everything else on this earth, for our good. Everything was put here for our benefit. Not that we should abuse any of it, because God didn’t put it here for our abuse, but He did put it here for our use. In whatever morally acceptable way the Church teaches.

And that includes food. I’m pretty sure Jesus ate lamb at his Passover meals like all the other observant Jews of His time. Also, they did slaughter animals as sacrifices, which hardly seems civilized to us. Yet, Jesus only condemned the money changers because they were selling them for profit in the Temple area, not because they were going to use the animals as sacrifice.

I’m not a vegan/vegetarian, but I do love animals. We can use them but not abuse them. That’s Church teaching in a nutshell.
CCC 2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.
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**CCC 2417 **God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
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CCC 2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons
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CCC 2457 Animals are entrusted to man’s stewardship; he must show them kindness. They may be used to serve the just satisfaction of man’s needs.
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All that said, it’s perfectly fine to refrain from eating animals and/or animal products if you so wish. Man has definitely neglected and abused too many and that was NOT in God’s plan. So if you wish to show your displeasure at those who have maltreated animals because of that fact, it is a noble thing to go vegan/vegetarian.
 
mercifulJan said:
Since the Church continues to hide abusers of children (the latest Ireland news confirms this), why should the Church expose the abuse of billions of animals?
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:ouch:

um… Jan, that is no way to win Catholics over to your cause.
 
I agree. That sort of “in your face” preaching only runs people off.
 
If anyone has any ideas of how to teach God’s compassion for all of His animals, that would be great.
I know that the Church has responded to the laity’s exposure of the Priest abuse which was a sensible thing to do, but, it seems that the abusers are still being hidden. Aren’t we suppose to speak up for those who have been and are suffering?

While the CCC says some kind words for animals, that we are to treat them kindly, then I think we should seriously think about what we are doing. God actually gave us animals to be our companions in the beginning of time when He was creating the world and God gave us vegetation to be our (and the animals) diet before sin entered the world (see Genesis 1:20-31). Our bodies are not made to digest animals (at least the amount we use). For more information about health and animal products, the Physicians Committee of Responsible Medicine has scientific research. We have become a nation that is physically becoming obese, diabetic, and high in heart attacks.

Our treatment of animals (and use of them) is also a social justice issue since the workers in slaughterhouses are usually the poor who either suffer from the trauma of killing animals or their consciences are seared (withered), which is another sign of our times. Do we care?

It is an environmental issue since factory farms is one of the top polluters, not to mention that they use up our resources of land and water. The rain forest is also being cut down so meats can be exported to us even at this moment. A Sister was murdered because she spoke out for the depletion of the forest for the expense of raising cattle to satisfy our stomachs (it was in the National Geographic and her anniversary was recently celebrated).
Hopefully, the Church will actively teach God’s compassion in word and action.
The HSUS’ animals and religion has a new video “Eating Mercifully” which is very balanced and even has a Sister interviewed on it. Videos like this should be shown in our churches, but they aren’t.
St. Francis was even compassionate for a chicken and hardly ate meat (if at all) because of his compassion towards God’s creatures. (There is a new book out with him in it amongst other Saints who were vegetarian).
While I’m not promoting vegetarianism, (although I think it is the way to go especially in today’s world and God created us to be vegetarians - Gen. 1:29), I’m just asking that more attention to our relationship with animals be reconsidered. Our treatment of them (directly and indirectly) affects and reflects our relationship with God.
If we truly ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, I’m sure we will know what the ‘right thing’ to do is while we make our daily choices.
As St. Paul taught us to live (as he did), "So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. Avoid giving offense, …"1 Cor. 10:31-33 and in 1 Cor. 8:11-13 St. Paul gives the principal of living to not offend a weaker person. To go further, if someone says that this principal is not for today, I say if food is more important than God, and others, then it has become an idol. The agricultural industry exists for money and we all know what St. Paul said that the love of money is the root of evil.
When we pray the Lord’s Prayer do we really mean “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?” Someday, as Is. 11 says, we will all live in harmony once again with the animals. If we are truly now citizens of Heaven, then I believe we should be living on earth as it is in Heaven.

In Jesus, the Prince of Peace,

Jan Fredericks
 
mercifulJan said:
If anyone has any ideas of how to teach God’s compassion for all of His animals, that would be great.
I know that the Church has responded to the laity’s exposure of the Priest abuse which was a sensible thing to do, but, it seems that the abusers are still being hidden. Aren’t we suppose to speak up for those who have been and are suffering?

While the CCC says some kind words for animals, that we are to treat them kindly, then I think we should seriously think about what we are doing. God actually gave us animals to be our companions in the beginning of time when He was creating the world and God gave us vegetation to be our (and the animals) diet before sin entered the world (see Genesis 1:20-31). Our bodies are not made to digest animals (at least the amount we use). For more information about health and animal products, the Physicians Committee of Responsible Medicine has scientific research. We have become a nation that is physically becoming obese, diabetic, and high in heart attacks.

Our treatment of animals (and use of them) is also a social justice issue since the workers in slaughterhouses are usually the poor who either suffer from the trauma of killing animals or their consciences are seared (withered), which is another sign of our times. Do we care?

It is an environmental issue since factory farms is one of the top polluters, not to mention that they use up our resources of land and water. The rain forest is also being cut down so meats can be exported to us even at this moment. A Sister was murdered because she spoke out for the depletion of the forest for the expense of raising cattle to satisfy our stomachs (it was in the National Geographic and her anniversary was recently celebrated).
Hopefully, the Church will actively teach God’s compassion in word and action.
The HSUS’ animals and religion has a new video “Eating Mercifully” which is very balanced and even has a Sister interviewed on it. Videos like this should be shown in our churches, but they aren’t.
St. Francis was even compassionate for a chicken and hardly ate meat (if at all) because of his compassion towards God’s creatures. (There is a new book out with him in it amongst other Saints who were vegetarian).
While I’m not promoting vegetarianism, (although I think it is the way to go especially in today’s world and God created us to be vegetarians - Gen. 1:29), I’m just asking that more attention to our relationship with animals be reconsidered. Our treatment of them (directly and indirectly) affects and reflects our relationship with God.
If we truly ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, I’m sure we will know what the ‘right thing’ to do is while we make our daily choices.
As St. Paul taught us to live (as he did), "So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. Avoid giving offense, …"1 Cor. 10:31-33 and in 1 Cor. 8:11-13 St. Paul gives the principal of living to not offend a weaker person. To go further, if someone says that this principal is not for today, I say if food is more important than God, and others, then it has become an idol. The agricultural industry exists for money and we all know what St. Paul said that the love of money is the root of evil.
When we pray the Lord’s Prayer do we really mean “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?” Someday, as Is. 11 says, we will all live in harmony once again with the animals. If we are truly now citizens of Heaven, then I believe we should be living on earth as it is in Heaven.

In Jesus, the Prince of Peace,

Jan Fredericks
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Read the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#CHAPTER%20TEN
 
mercifulJan said:
If anyone has any ideas of how to teach God’s compassion for all of His animals, that would be great.
I know that the Church has responded to the laity’s exposure of the Priest abuse which was a sensible thing to do, but, it seems that the abusers are still being hidden. Aren’t we suppose to speak up for those who have been and are suffering?

While the CCC says some kind words for animals, that we are to treat them kindly, then I think we should seriously think about what we are doing. God actually gave us animals to be our companions in the beginning of time when He was creating the world and God gave us vegetation to be our (and the animals) diet before sin entered the world (see Genesis 1:20-31). Our bodies are not made to digest animals (at least the amount we use). For more information about health and animal products, the Physicians Committee of Responsible Medicine has scientific research. We have become a nation that is physically becoming obese, diabetic, and high in heart attacks.

Our treatment of animals (and use of them) is also a social justice issue since the workers in slaughterhouses are usually the poor who either suffer from the trauma of killing animals or their consciences are seared (withered), which is another sign of our times. Do we care?

It is an environmental issue since factory farms is one of the top polluters, not to mention that they use up our resources of land and water. The rain forest is also being cut down so meats can be exported to us even at this moment. A Sister was murdered because she spoke out for the depletion of the forest for the expense of raising cattle to satisfy our stomachs (it was in the National Geographic and her anniversary was recently celebrated).
Hopefully, the Church will actively teach God’s compassion in word and action.
The HSUS’ animals and religion has a new video “Eating Mercifully” which is very balanced and even has a Sister interviewed on it. Videos like this should be shown in our churches, but they aren’t.
St. Francis was even compassionate for a chicken and hardly ate meat (if at all) because of his compassion towards God’s creatures. (There is a new book out with him in it amongst other Saints who were vegetarian).
While I’m not promoting vegetarianism, (although I think it is the way to go especially in today’s world and God created us to be vegetarians - Gen. 1:29), I’m just asking that more attention to our relationship with animals be reconsidered. Our treatment of them (directly and indirectly) affects and reflects our relationship with God.
If we truly ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, I’m sure we will know what the ‘right thing’ to do is while we make our daily choices.
As St. Paul taught us to live (as he did), "So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. Avoid giving offense, …"1 Cor. 10:31-33 and in 1 Cor. 8:11-13 St. Paul gives the principal of living to not offend a weaker person. To go further, if someone says that this principal is not for today, I say if food is more important than God, and others, then it has become an idol. The agricultural industry exists for money and we all know what St. Paul said that the love of money is the root of evil.
When we pray the Lord’s Prayer do we really mean “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?” Someday, as Is. 11 says, we will all live in harmony once again with the animals. If we are truly now citizens of Heaven, then I believe we should be living on earth as it is in Heaven.

In Jesus, the Prince of Peace,

Jan Fredericks
Click to expand...
The point is, sin entered the world and everything changed. We are not sinless once more, but we will be someday. Only then will things be perfect. Here, we have to struggle.

You do realize that the Church teaches that an animal’s soul dies with it’s body, right? Jesus did not die for animals, he died for humans. Human souls are everlasting, animals souls are not.

I think we all agree that to abuse or neglect animals is a grave matter, and the Church teaches that too. But the Church also teaches that to place animals above human dignity is wrong. Even Jesus said “it is not right to give the dogs food for the children” (paraphrased). He proved several points with this statement, one of the lesser of which is that animals are not to be treated equally to humans.
 
Hello again,
I forgot to mention that many other diseases (other than some cancers, heart disease, diabetes, etc.) are originally from farm animals (MRSA, bird flu, e-coli, foot and mouth disease, salmonella, etc. and now swine flu).
Is God trying to tell us something? Are we truly listening to the Holy Spirit?

In the love of the Lord,
Jan
 
mercifulJan said:
Hello again,
I forgot to mention that many other diseases (other than some cancers, heart disease, diabetes, etc.) are originally from farm animals (MRSA, bird flu, e-coli, foot and mouth disease, salmonella, etc. and now swine flu).
Is God trying to tell us something? Are we truly listening to the Holy Spirit?

In the love of the Lord,
Jan
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Whoh, back up the truck.

There are diseases spread from wild animals as well; West Nile Virus, Rabies, etc. etc.

Please don’t tell us that our “mistreatment” of farm animals has resulted in the Almighty sending plague and pestulance through those very animals. :rolleyes:

More importantly, you state a priori that using animals for our human benefit is abuse. No doubt that animal abuse exists, but not per your assertion that seems to be that all animal use = animal abuse.
 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Animals can be used by us, (ie. plowing, riding, etc.). But, we’ve strayed so far away from God’s intentions that we believe that animal abuse is normal including bullfighting (which are blessed by some Bishops).
Pope John Paul II and the Bible both say that animals have souls (they actually were created with the same soul that we have). Of course they don’t make decisions to follow Jesus, they are amoral. However, Colossians 1 which is widely read in the Church, says that “…in him all things hold together.” v17 It also says that Jesus died for all of creation - " … and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross [through him], whether those on earth or those in heaven." Col. 1:20 This is one of my favorite passages giving a much deeper meaning to how Jesus truly reconciled the whole world by His cross and resurrection for us to celebrate and work towards for the whole world. What a great Savior we have to serve!
 
I’ve considered being vegetarian since I love animals and hate the idea of them being killed so that they may be eaten.
I’ve even had nightmares about it!
But, alas, I like the taste of meat.
That COULD just mean I need more discipline with possibly being a vegetarian.
 
mercifulJan said:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Animals can be used by us, (ie. plowing, riding, etc.). But, we’ve strayed so far away from God’s intentions that we believe that animal abuse is normal including bullfighting (which are blessed by some Bishops).
Pope John Paul II and the Bible both say that animals have souls (they actually were created with the same soul that we have). Of course they don’t make decisions to follow Jesus, they are amoral. However, Colossians 1 which is widely read in the Church, says that “…in him all things hold together.” v17 It also says that Jesus died for all of creation - " … and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross [through him], whether those on earth or those in heaven." Col. 1:20 This is one of my favorite passages giving a much deeper meaning to how Jesus truly reconciled the whole world by His cross and resurrection for us to celebrate and work towards for the whole world. What a great Savior we have to serve!
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Reference, please?
 
mercifulJan said:
.
Pope John Paul II and the Bible both say that animals have souls (they actually were created with the same soul that we have).
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I would have to join with Newbie in asking for the citations to back up your claim. My understanding is that the Church teaches that animals have mortal souls, but humans have immortal souls.

As for the Bible, the Catholic Encyclopedia says this:
Three terms are used for the soul, nephesh, nuah, and neshamah; the first was taken to refer to the animal and vegetative nature, the second to the ethical principle, the third to the purely spiritual intelligence. At all events, it is evident that the Old Testament throughout either asserts or implies the distinct reality of the soul.
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oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Soul

The three different terms suggest that animal souls are quite different from human souls.
 
Hi,
Thank you for your comments and info regarding animal souls.
This link (although not Catholic) gives some explanation which I find interesting.

books.google.com/books?id=Lfn3NrjUZ2wC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=nephesh++chayah+definition&source=bl&ots=N8dpd7a-gT&sig=P4Ron9nOjAA7ajnJyb7W4Ymg9Ks&hl=en&ei=3aMaSr_KGd_HtgftiO3mDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Animals in heaven and their souls is not a fact we can probably make definitive statements about, but I like to believe that as Isaiah 11 says, animals will be in God’s Kingdom. “LET everything that has breath, give praise to the Lord!” Ps. 150:6
 
mercifulJan said:
Hi,
Thank you for your comments and info regarding animal souls.
This link (although not Catholic) gives some explanation which I find interesting.

books.google.com/books?id=Lfn3NrjUZ2wC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=nephesh++chayah+definition&source=bl&ots=N8dpd7a-gT&sig=P4Ron9nOjAA7ajnJyb7W4Ymg9Ks&hl=en&ei=3aMaSr_KGd_HtgftiO3mDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Animals in heaven and their souls is not a fact we can probably make definitive statements about, but I like to believe that as Isaiah 11 says, animals will be in God’s Kingdom. “LET everything that has breath, give praise to the Lord!” Ps. 150:6
Click to expand...
Um…you wrote earlier that “Pope John Paul II and the Bible both say that animals have souls…”. Are you amending that statement?
 
Pope John Paul II, others, and the Bible all state that animals have souls.

Regarding Jesus (who was most likely with the Jewish sect of the Essenes), eating lamb at the last supper and animal sacrifices, – Jesus was/is the Lamb of God and instituted the Eucharist for us.
Regarding animal sacrifices, while I’m not an expert about it, I do believe that in the Minor Prophets specifically and the Psalms, I get the message that God didn’t want animal sacrifices but rather a contrite, humble heart.

I think more attention should be given to how God views our hearts as in passages such as Numbers 11:16-35 where the Israelites wanted meat to eat (like they had back in the day when they lived in Egypt). God doesn’t like greed which is not only linked to money, but to food.
 
The last thread on this subject was closed because it was too contentious and lacking in charity and contained a warning not to start a new thread on the same topic, which this is.

THREAD CLOSED.
 
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