In Africa: The Pope Celebrates Mass in Extraordinary Form

[YoungTradCath]

Actually, this translation is not new. It’s older than the one that we have been using. It was used in the 1960s and early 70s. It was translated again, because it sounded clunky.

As you correctly point out, in an effort to make it sound smoother, words were replaced, for example, cup replaced chalice. However, chalice has a very different meaning In Jewish culture, a chalice was a sacred cup. Physically, it was a cup, but functionally it served a very different purpose. It was not what you used to drink out of on a daily basis.

The same with the term “pro multis”. It always meant “for all”. However, in Hebrew, the term “for the many” meant for all who would accept the gift. The gift was for all, but it was understood that many would accept it and some would not. When it was replaced with “for all” that whole idea of mean accepting salvation is lost. It makes man sound like a passive receiver who has to do nothing.

While the second edition of the Roman Missal sounded smoother, it also sacrificed the layers of meaning in the original words, especially when you went from Latin to a non Latin language, such as English.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Right. I just meant “new” as in, part of the new translation, not exclusively, but as part of that.

No, I’m not asking or even saying that the translations for the OF Credo are funky. I’m saying that the OF translation is different from the 1962 translation. DIFFERENT. They are different.

And no, I’m not asking why you don’t say the Credo in Latin in the OF.

I understand that it’s difficult to translate the Latin into English. Have you ever studied Latin? It’s a pain in the neck to understand.

Permission for use of the vernacular for the EF Credo isn’t an issue since it’s always said in Latin in the EF. It just doesn’t apply.

The reason that the translations differ is because there was no official translation of the mass into English before Vatican II. All the translations were done by independent publishing companies who put their take on the Latin into the hand missals they sold. The Church didn’t have any part of it, except granting imprimaturs (which allows something to be printed). The Church didn’t do the translating. Someone else did, and only as a commercial venture. There were translations, but only unofficial ones.

After Vatican II, when the Church itself actually did the translating, the translation differed from the unofficial English translations before it because it was a different set of people doing the translating.

So you’re right. The pre-Vatican II translations (which were all unofficial, done by some group of people) versus the post-Vatican II translations (which have been all official, done by the Church itself) do differ. But the underlying Latin in both versions of the mass is exactly the same, and the Latin is the authoritative edition, so the Credos in both Forms is exactly the same.

 

[ProVobis]

I understand that it’s difficult to translate the Latin into English.

English provides plenty of analytical tools to help understand Latin but, you’re right, it’s one of the hardest languages to translate the Latin into, on a word for word basis.

FWIW, translating Polish to English isn’t a piece of cake either.

 

[OraLabora]

No, I’m not asking or even saying that the translations for the OF Credo are funky. I’m saying that the OF translation is different from the 1962 translation. DIFFERENT. They are different. I’m not sure how many ways I can try to say this so that it’s understood.

And no, I’m not asking why you don’t say the Credo in Latin in the OF.

I understand that it’s difficult to translate the Latin into English. Have you ever studied Latin? It’s a pain in the neck to understand.

Permission for use of the vernacular for the EF Credo isn’t an issue since it’s always said in Latin in the EF. It just doesn’t apply.

I’ll back out of this thread now, since everyone disagrees with what I’m saying. No use in further discussion on my part.

As was explained to you numerous times, there is NO English Credo in the 1962 Missal that can be proclaimed in the liturgy. There are various and different translations of the Latin and they cannot be compared to the current or new English translations because the 1962 translation cannot be licitly used at Mass, it was only there to help you understand what was being chanted or recited. Only the Latin could be used, and the Latin hasn’t changed except for minor spelling differences to the Latin.

What you hear now is either an official English translation-which didn’t exist in 1962- or the unchanged and official Latin version.