In death does temporal punishment = Purgatory?

[Guest1]

So temporal punishment when one dies is purgatory and eternal punishment is hell?

Yes? No?

Thanks

 

[PatK63]

There is some thinking now that purgatory is a time of waiting and purification not punishment. The pain is waiting to see God face to face. But we really don’t know. We just know we have a just and merciful God who loves us.

 

[Genesis315]

Yes. Hell as eternal punishment is generally uncontroverted. As for temporal punishment and Purgatory:

From the Council of Trent:

Session 6:

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

The above is formulated as the condemnation of the contrary error. Positively, after the grace of justification has been received by a penitent sinner, there may remain a debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory.

 

[CRV]

EWTN - What is an Indulgence, following the first two paragraphs is - Eternal and Temporal Punishment or Guilt

 

[Genesis315]

There is some thinking now that purgatory is a time of waiting and purification not punishment. The pain is waiting to see God face to face.

This is a false dichotomy (in any event, we can’t depart from the dogmatic judgments of the Church, such as my post from Trent above). The punishment is purifying as we wait to have our sins expiated before we see God face to face. That’s the point of punishment: it satisfies temporal justice, undoing the disorder introduced by the sin so no injustice remains.

 

[thistle]

So temporal punishment when one dies is purgatory and eternal punishment is hell?

Yes? No?

Thanks

The Church teaching:

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

 

[JanR]

This brings to mind something one of my newly-discovered cousins said about one of my great uncles, who was an alcoholic, a chain smoker, and a womanizer who ended up with emphysema and lung cancer, who destroyed his first marriage, and served time in prison for nonsupport of his kids.

This cousin revealed that his first marriage lasted 17 years. He suffered terribly with his illnesses for 17 years, before he finally died. She and her mother were initially very bitter against him, when someone pointed this out. Now, they feel that he got his punishment while he was still here – 17 years of marriage that he betrayed and destroyed, 17 years of chronic sickness, pain and suffering, and then death. She and her mother then felt the books were balanced and justice was served, and they stopped speaking badly of him. This seems fair, to me. He did his penance while still inside of his ravaged and ruined body, and that made up for his ravaged and ruined marriage and first family. I would like to believe that he is okay, now – that he learned his lessons and God was merciful to him.

 

[Guest1]

Guys can you please answer more simply regarding the temporal punishment question?

Is the temporal punishment one could face in death purgatory?

 

[JanR]

I may be able to help, to some extent.

While I don’t know for sure if the purification process in Purgatory is temporal punishment, I do know that we receive temporal punishments right here on earth.

For example, if somebody commits a crime in this life, their temporal punishment (which I define as a specific tangible punishment) could be time in jail or a long prison term. Temporal punishment is usually a specific consequence that the offender has to experience and endure.

If somebody embezzles funds, they can be forced to pay back a specific amount, or make other specific and tangible restitutions.

I think what’s confusing you is the definition of temporal punishment. It’s something specific and tangible to the person receiving it.

The purification process in Purgatory may involve some of that, or it may be a generalized, overall purification, involving the totality of the human soul.

The truth is, we really don’t know what we shall experience in Purgatory, only that we shall be thoroughly cleansed and purified of whatever small imperfections remain.

And, because we are no longer inside of our physical bodies when we die, all of that shall occur supernaturally or completely spiritually. So, the question actually is, can we still experience specific, tangible punishments (or consequences) after we are no longer inside of our bodies? Maybe yes, maybe no, or maybe it will be a different kind of experience, altogether.

That’s my take on it – I may or may not be entirely correct. None of us will know until we get there.

 

[thistle]

While I don’t know for sure if the purification process in Purgatory is temporal punishment, I do know that we receive temporal punishments right here on earth.

The Church teaches that the purification process frees souls from temporal punishment. It does not teach that the purification process itself is temporal punishment.

 

[JanR]

Looks like you’ve just answered the OP’s question.

 

[poche]

There is anecdotal evidence that temporal punishment in htis life can diminish or cancel Purgatory in hte next.

 

[JanR]

As may have been the case with the great uncle I mentioned above. It makes sense, and it seems fair.

 

[Guest1]

The Church teaches that the purification process frees souls from temporal punishment. It does not teach that the purification process itself is temporal punishment.

@thistle

Thank you. Where do you get the information? The catechism?

 

[thistle]

Thank you. Where do you get the information? The catechism?

CCC 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence . Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

 

[JanR]

That is remarkably clear. The purification process does involve suffering, however, as we are asked to pray for the “poor souls in Purgatory”. Purification, apparently, doesn’t come easily.