In Spirit and in Truth - John4:24

[maximus]

I wish to have ideas interchanged on what Christ meant in John 4:24 “God is a Spirit; and they that adore him must adore him in Spirit and in Truth.” Some threat Spirit and Truth as interchangeable and in extreme cases fall into a Gnostic dualism. This is a very short passage, which packs an enormous amount of meaning because the terms Worship. Truth, and Spirit each can be treated extensively on their own.

My humble understanding centers on the idea that for worship to be true it must have been designated by God himself. In regards to its Spiritual character it must have man presenting himself through a life of faithful as an offering to God. In regards to public worship there must be sacrifice in word and in a new worthy offering in order for the Prophesy in Malachi 1 to make any sort of sense. As a Catholic Christian, the mass fulfils this requirement as echoed in the ancient Eucharistic prayer one.

I would like to hear different viewpoints on this topic for my edification in a kind and Christian fashion.

God bless all!

Viva Cristo Rey!

 

[tobias]

Since God is Spirit, he must be worshiped in spirit. Since angels and man are spirit or have a spirit, it is possible then for either to worship in spirit. It would be impossible for the animal kingdom to worship in spirit.

As a Catholic you’re aware that we also worship with our body; kneeling before the blessed sacrament, making the sign of the cross, recieving the eucharist, etc… However if these are not accompanied by spiritual worship they will condemn us, for though we gave God the honor and respect due to Him with our body and then do not converse with Him in spirit (personal prayer, and conversation with God), then we dishonor and disrespect Him with our lack of righteousness (right relationship). To worship God in truth is to worship God as He truly is.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Just to follow up on your point on faithfulness, I think Jesus is also trying to emphasis that true worship is from a man’s heart (that is, his spirit) in contrast to the vain worship of the scribes and Pharisees which he criticizes in Matt 15:7-9:
“You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: `This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me…”

As the Baltimore Catechism says:
We should pray: with attention, with a sense of our own helplessness and dependence upon God, with a great desire for the graces we beg of God, with trust in God’s goodness, and with perseverance. (Q&A. 307)

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
Whether prayer is expressed in words or gestures, it is the whole man who prays. But in naming the source of prayer, Scripture speaks sometimes of the soul or the spirit, but most often of the heart (more than a thousand times). According to Scripture, it is the heart that prays. If our heart is far from God, the words of prayer are in vain. (2562)

In Steven K. Ray’s book, St. John’s Gospel, (Ignatius Press, 2002), pages 117-118, he writes concerning this section of the John’s Gospel:

Jesus says that worship will no longer be tied to a geographical location, neither Jerusalem nor Mount Gerazim (cf. CCC 1179). Ancient peoples believed gods were tied to the land. Therefore, to leave Israel and the Temple was to leave the God of Israel (cf. Ps 137:4). In the future, Jesus tells her, worship will be different. First, it will be universal, over the face of the earth (Is 66:18; Mal 1:11; CCC 1138). Second, it will be no longer exclusive to one people, the Jews, but will include all nations (Mal 1:11; Eph 2:11ff.; Gal 3:27-29; CCC 775). Third, it will be in spirit and truth, for God is spirit. The Holy Spirit will be given, and he will change the interior aspect of worship. It will not be external forms only, but internal communion with the Father through the Spirit (Phil 3:3; Gal 5:18; Eph 2:18; CCC 586)

 

[edwinG]

maximus:

I wish to have ideas interchanged on what Christ meant in John 4:24 “God is a Spirit; and they that adore him must adore him in Spirit and in Truth.” Some threat Spirit and Truth as interchangeable and in extreme cases fall into a Gnostic dualism. This is a very short passage, which packs an enormous amount of meaning because the terms Worship. Truth, and Spirit each can be treated extensively on their own.

My humble understanding centers on the idea that for worship to be true it must have been designated by God himself. In regards to its Spiritual character it must have man presenting himself through a life of faithful as an offering to God. In regards to public worship there must be sacrifice in word and in a new worthy offering in order for the Prophesy in Malachi 1 to make any sort of sense. As a Catholic Christian, the mass fulfils this requirement as echoed in the ancient Eucharistic prayer one.

I would like to hear different viewpoints on this topic for my edification in a kind and Christian fashion.

God bless all!

Viva Cristo Rey!

Hi, Cristo Rey,
Romans 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
Personally I do not speak in tongues, What is the catholic position of speaking in tongues. Many at my church do this. I believe it is a sign to edify the members. Any thoughts?
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[maximus]

Hi Edwin,

Within the Catholic Church there are many Charismatic groups that pray in tongues. I been in conferences were some people prayed in tongues. As for myself I have never been able to do this, since I assume this involves the Holy Spirit controlling you and that has never happened to me. There is a little instructional pamphlet that a Catholic charismatic group puts out called “Life in the Spirit.” I have one somewhere. I imagine you could probably find it online. Hopefully some others will give you better information on this.

My alias is Maximus; Cristo Rey is Spanish for Christ the King. I end my posts with Viva Cristo Rey, which means Hurray for Christ the King and was an exclamation a Mexican Priest named Miguel Pro did before a firing squad.

God Bless!

Viva Cristo Rey!

 

[edwinG]

maximus:

Hi Edwin,

Within the Catholic Church there are many Charismatic groups that pray in tongues. I been in conferences were some people prayed in tongues. As for myself I have never been able to do this, since I assume this involves the Holy Spirit controlling you and that has never happened to me. There is a little instructional pamphlet that a Catholic charismatic group puts out called “Life in the Spirit.” I have one somewhere. I imagine you could probably find it online. Hopefully some others will give you better information on this.

My alias is Maximus; Cristo Rey is Spanish for Christ the King. I end my posts with Viva Cristo Rey, which means Hurray for Christ the King and was an exclamation a Mexican Priest named Miguel Pro did before a firing squad.

God Bless!

Viva Cristo Rey!

Hi Maximus,
I am very late in replying. Thank you very much for this information. I believe that praying in tongues is a gift, one of the lesser ones and it is used to edify the church members, and its absence is not a sign of the absence of the Holy Spirit.I think Paul says we should be careful, as it can be a foreign spirit.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Anonymous_1]

edwinG:

Hi, Cristo Rey,
Romans 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
Personally I do not speak in tongues, What is the catholic position of speaking in tongues. Many at my church do this. I believe it is a sign to edify the members. Any thoughts?
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

I believe this verse from Romans you quoted is actually referring to praying with true intentions, things that cannot be expressed in words.

Toungues is a beautiful thing. The Spirit of God directly praying to God through a man. And it is real. One of the turning points of my faith was when i heard a woman praying in toungues.

But there are many spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians chapter 12 explains these for us. We are given gifts to further the Kingdom and to build up and bea blessing tot he Church. But there are many gifts, but one Spirit who gives these gifts as seen fit.

Good stuff.