In the seminary

[ChrisPietraszko]

So I’ve been in the Seminary for 2 years now, and I must admit there are normal human relationships that can certainly make one spin. But all in all, the reality of my seminary formation has been great, either way I go in life (Priesthood, Married Life, Single, whatever).

What I must say however is there are general attitudes that drive me a bit up the wall. Some guys say, “Just keep your mouth shut and move through” because they feel as if the place doesn’t fit their political stance on certain issues. Of course, my feeling is that you should be honest either way, and that way they get to discern your calling as the Church ought to. But I was wondering what other people thought abou this “keep your mouth shut” attitude. I certainly understand it, but can’t help but feel that it is a bit dishonest.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Can you explain what attitudes you’ve been counselled to keep shut about?

I figure seminary if for learning, and its difficult to learn if you are to keep your mouth shut. Perhaps I have a naive view of what the seminary is for. If it is anything like USAF Officer Training School, then learning is only a very small part of it, and it is more of a prolonged interview evaluating whether you are fit to serve as an officer in the Air Force. I suppose if seminary is anything like that, then there probably will be times when they are testing your character to see if you will lose your bearing. If keeping your mouth shut means keeping your bearing in the face of adversity, then I suppose that’s part of the test.

One has to prudently discern whether such questioning is an occasion for learning or an occasion for testing whether your character deals well with adversarial views.

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

Agreed. There is a time and place to say everything. We don’t always have to split hairs on certain issues. But I guess what these people are struggling with is liturgical practices, and interpretations, et cetera.

I suppose it really comes down to prudence. I’m just glad I don’t fear the faculty. And as you said, if we hold onto certain beliefs without ever questioning them amongst others, then can we truely say we have confidence in them?

 

[KMXV]

Reminds me of the story of the guy who became a monk in a really strict order. They were only allowed to say two words every ten years. After his first ten years, his superior invited him to speak and he said, “Hard bed.” After the next ten years, he said, “Bad food.” Finally, after 30 years he said, “I quit.” To which his superior replied, “Well, that doesn’t surprise me. All you do is complain.”

Personally, I’ve never gotten in trouble for not saying something. I think prudence in speech is a wonderful virtue. I can’t see much to be gained by irritating the faculty and agitating your fellow seminarians. The question has to be asked constantly, “Is this the battle you really want to fight, is this the hill you really want to die on?” If the answer is no, keep your head down, suffer through it and get ordained so you can save people’s souls. You’ll have plenty of opportunity to speak the truth after ordination. Many times, people won’t want to hear it. But that’s their problem. There’s a time and a place for everything.

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

Reminds me of the story of the guy who became a monk in a really strict order. They were only allowed to say two words every ten years. After his first ten years, his superior invited him to speak and he said, “Hard bed.” After the next ten years, he said, “Bad food.” Finally, after 30 years he said, “I quit.” To which his superior replied, “Well, that doesn’t surprise me. All you do is complain.”

Personally, I’ve never gotten in trouble for not saying something. I think prudence in speech is a wonderful virtue. I can’t see much to be gained by irritating the faculty and agitating your fellow seminarians. The question has to be asked constantly, “Is this the battle you really want to fight, is this the hill you really want to die on?” If the answer is no, keep your head down, suffer through it and get ordained so you can save people’s souls. You’ll have plenty of opportunity to speak the truth after ordination. Many times, people won’t want to hear it. But that’s their problem. There’s a time and a place for everything.

Okay I think I’m understanding it a bit more. For me it just seemed like a dishonest portrayal of the self. But I suppose, it is simply passivity, and acceptance of the a disagreeable ideology.

Hmm…lots to think about.

 

[awalt]

I think it’s important to remember we are all called to serve Christ, in whatever vocation we end up with.

It’s amazing how many people get wrapped up in little problems of the Church - its rules, its liturgy, personalities, etc. Remember, the Church is a large multi-national organization of human beings, er, sinners! Christ brings the infallibility to the Church. I many times think if these issues were important to Christ he would deal with it. Not that I think liturgical abuse for example, is correct at all, but if you think abut the old “What would Jesus do” would he be happier that maybe some weird thing in Mass attracted a few more souls? Hard question to figure out, but at least we should be more compassionate about it, instead of acting like Liturgy Police.

I do know that there is a lot more discussion on here about liturgical abuse and theological positioning than there is about how we are helping the poor, sick, homebound, and others. That’s a shame. When it’s all said and done, we will be judged to the Sermon on the Mount via Matthew 25, the story of the sheep and the goats. I don’t read anything about liturgical abuse there.

Good luck and God bless!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

As an officer in the Air Force, I want my subordinates to say, “But Sir…” when I’m headed the wrong direction. However, I wan’t them to do so nicely. After a “But Sir…” or two, after having considered their view, then it is up to me to make a decision. Sometimes I agree with my subordinates. Sometimes we disagree. However, my subordinates know that after the “But Sir…” done in private and respectfully, if we still disagree, they are expected to champion my decision to the rest of the unit as if it were their very own. That is important for unity of command and unity of purpose. I have the same expectation for myself with regard to the officers appointed over me. Nobody wants a “yes man,” but their is a way to respectfully manifest one’s opinion to their superiors while still respecting and submitting to their authority.

I suppose the seminary is looking for men who can adapt to that kind of loyaly, obedience, while also confident and assertive enough to manifest one’s opinion for the good of the Church.

You might prayerfully reflect upon the following…

Lumen Gentium, no. 37:

By reason of the knowledge, competence, or pre-eminence which they have, the laity are empowered—indeed sometimes obliged—to manifest their opinion on those things which pertain to the good of the Church. If the occasion should arise, this should be done through the institutions established by the Church for that purpose, and always with truth, courage, and prudence, and with reverence and charity toward those who, by reason of their office, represent the person of Christ.

The laity should, as all Christians, promptly accept in Christian obedience decisions of their spiritual shepherds, since they are representatives of Christ as well as teachers and rulers in the Church. Let them follow the example of Christ, who by His obedience even unto death, opened to all men the blessed way of the liberty of the children of God. Nor should they omit to pray for those placed over them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of their souls, so that they may do this with joy and not with grief.(Cf. Heb 13:17)

Thomas a’Kempis, , Bk I, Ch. IXThe Imitation of Christ:

OBEDIENCE AND SUBJECTION

IT IS a very great thing to obey, to live under a superior and not to be one’s own master, for it is much safer to be subject than it is to command. Many live in obedience more from necessity than from love. Such become discontented and dejected on the slightest pretext; they will never gain peace of mind unless they subject themselves wholeheartedly for the love of God.

Go where you may, you will find no rest except in humble obedience to the rule of authority. Dreams of happiness expected from change and different places have deceived many.

Everyone, it is true, wishes to do as he pleases and is attracted to those who agree with him. But if God be among us, we must at times give up our opinions for the blessings of peace.

Furthermore, who is so wise that he can have full knowledge of everything? Do not trust too much in your own opinions, but be willing to listen to those of others. If, though your own be good, you accept another’s opinion for love of God, you will gain much more merit; for I have often heard that it is safer to listen to advice and take it than to give it. It may happen, too, that while one’s own opinion may be good, refusal to agree with others when reason and occasion demand it, is a sign of pride and obstinacy.

See also Charity Demands Fraternal Correction

 

[awalt]

Actually ChrisPietraszko I have a book recommendation for you - it’s a quick read, only 191 pages, and it is called **Radical Compassion: Finding Christ in the Heart of the Poor **by Gary Smith, who is a Jesuit priest.

The story is about his dealings with the poor and sick in a bad section of Portland. It’s a whole book of little stories about different people - and that they are HUMAN, in the image of God. This book really changed my life and my perspective on what we are REALLY called to do. The best review I saw of it said “Be brave, read this book”. Well said.

We all make lots of book recommendations on here, but as I am entering the Deacon formation program I can assume a little what you are thinking about, so I really heartily recommend this book. I think it will really help you discern that you are on the right path, and what your true vocation should be, or not. Gary Smith is a wonderful, tremendous individual that I can never be without a whole lot more grace from God. And there is not a question in my mind that he shows us the true picture of the priesthood.

Good luck!

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

Actually ChrisPietraszko I have a book recommendation for you - it’s a quick read, only 191 pages, and it is called Radical Compassion: Finding Christ in the Heart of the Poor by Gary Smith, who is a Jesuit priest.

The story is about his dealings with the poor and sick in a bad section of Portland. It’s a whole book of little stories about different people - and that they are HUMAN, in the image of God. This book really changed my life and my perspective on what we are REALLY called to do. The best review I saw of it said “Be brave, read this book”. Well said.

We all make lots of book recommendations on here, but as I am entering the Deacon formation program I can assume a little what you are thinking about, so I really heartily recommend this book. I think it will really help you discern that you are on the right path, and what your true vocation should be, or not. Gary Smith is a wonderful, tremendous individual that I can never be without a whole lot more grace from God. And there is not a question in my mind that he shows us the true picture of the priesthood.

Good luck!

Agreed, my only frustration is that when ever I want to discuss something spiritual, perhaps, “what Christ is doing in each other’s lives” or I enjoyed that mass today, I always get shot down with, “I hate the liturgy” or, basically get shoved aside so other’s can discuss everything wrong with the world. Granted, it is good to discuss the bad stuff, but I sometimes feel like all my zeal and joy for the priesthood is sucked out of me from these walking talking black holes. It just gets tiring after awhile, is all.

 

[Micki]

Can you explain what attitudes you’ve been counselled to keep shut about?

I figure seminary if for learning, and its difficult to learn if you are to keep your mouth shut. Perhaps I have a naive view of what the seminary is for. If it is anything like USAF Officer Training School, then learning is only a very small part of it, and it is more of a prolonged interview evaluating whether you are fit to serve as an officer in the Air Force. I suppose if seminary is anything like that, then there probably will be times when they are testing your character to see if you will lose your bearing. If keeping your mouth shut means keeping your bearing in the face of adversity, then I suppose that’s part of the test.

One has to prudently discern whether such questioning is an occasion for learning or an occasion for testing whether your character deals well with adversarial views.

A bit off topic but—
When were you in USAF officers’ training school? My husband was there in 1980.
Micki

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

Comming from a person that has a very hard time keeping his mouth shut, There are times that I can even do it. It is very important to like one poster said do you really want to fight that battle? Sometimes not getting into mouth trouble is a better of the two situations. Say something get kicked out, what a waste of a good seminarian. Unless it is an outrage try to suck it up and move on. I am telling myself that too. I feel that mouth sickness is a little to severe. There still is the freedom of speech, of course a lot of us forget that.

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

Comming from a person that has a very hard time keeping his mouth shut, There are times that I can even do it. It is very important to like one poster said do you really want to fight that battle? Sometimes not getting into mouth trouble is a better of the two situations. Say something get kicked out, what a waste of a good seminarian. Unless it is an outrage try to suck it up and move on. I am telling myself that too. I feel that mouth sickness is a little to severe. There still is the freedom of speech, of course a lot of us forget that.

Yeah please dont’ take what I have said to an extreme. I do believer there is a manner of “temperance” in what we say. Though we should always be pready to proclaim the truth with utter joy and love. My problem is when people go to the opposite extreme and live in “their own truth” to keep it secret because either they are afraid others will disagree, or that they may be proven wrong. I think we can talk about anything so long as it is done in moderation and in love/respect.

 

[batteddy]

Who are keeping their mouth shut? Men who are more liberal than the staff and don’t want their views known? Or men who are more conservative than the staff?

Because the first I think should be routed out, but if the second, I agree with their prudence.

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

Who are keeping their mouth shut? Men who are more liberal than the staff and don’t want their views known? Or men who are more conservative than the staff?

Because the first I think should be routed out, but if the second, I agree with their prudence.

LOL and they would both think of themselves as “orthodox” it is a problem difficult to “reason” with in that case.

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

LOL and they would both think of themselves as “orthodox” it is a problem difficult to “reason” with in that case.

Plus I wonder, if the more concervative seminarians spoke out it may bring about change…It is weird looking at our Church as if there is an underground. I do not think, however, the seminary would kick anyone out for having validated concepts by the magisterium. I just think they do not want to confront them with the faculty. I’ve never seemed to have a problem with that. I often challenge them in a respectful way, and they always seem to be concerned and genuine.

 

[Joe_Stong]

Honesty is the best policy - especially with any doubts, worries, fears, problems, etc. When you are discerning a religious vocation you have to learn to be totally honest with God, yourself, and others. In spiritual direction, in confession, with superiors and subordinates.

But as the others have mentioned, do so with charity, after prayer, and with the humility of attitude that you might be wrong, you may need a change in this or that… otherwise called “an open mind”. This is very important when dealing with misunderstandings or disagreements.

Seminary life is full of joy but also struggle - and the logistics involved of running a home full of young men is daunting. There are alot of contingent decisions needing to be made by superiors. Sometimes they’re wrong or poor decisions.

But it’s vital to learn to distinguish between decisions that are bad and those that are just less good. Or decisions you don’t quite understand the motive for as opposed to those you DO know the motive for and disagree. As a future priest dealing with bishops or lay people you’ll constantly be put in the position of needing to “deal” with people who aren’t on the same wave-length or who disagree with you, sometimes adamantly so.

Learn how to disagree politely, obey contingent decisions (not a question of immorality or illegality here) with good cheer even if you thought of a ‘better way’. Learn how to see things from other peoples’ perspective… this helps in discernment of spirits as well as helping others discern their OWN vocational calling.

Our Church is very rich and vast and huge… there’s no “one size fits all” spirituality, charism or group. Everyone has their place at the table if we’re all united in the faith (TRUTH) and morals (WAY) that lead to communion in Jesus in time and eternity (LIFE).

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

Honesty is the best policy - especially with any doubts, worries, fears, problems, etc. When you are discerning a religious vocation you have to learn to be totally honest with God, yourself, and others. In spiritual direction, in confession, with superiors and subordinates.

But as the others have mentioned, do so with charity, after prayer, and with the humility of attitude that you might be wrong, you may need a change in this or that… otherwise called “an open mind”. This is very important when dealing with misunderstandings or disagreements.

Seminary life is full of joy but also struggle - and the logistics involved of running a home full of young men is daunting. There are alot of contingent decisions needing to be made by superiors. Sometimes they’re wrong or poor decisions.

But it’s vital to learn to distinguish between decisions that are bad and those that are just less good. Or decisions you don’t quite understand the motive for as opposed to those you DO know the motive for and disagree. As a future priest dealing with bishops or lay people you’ll constantly be put in the position of needing to “deal” with people who aren’t on the same wave-length or who disagree with you, sometimes adamantly so.

Learn how to disagree politely, obey contingent decisions (not a question of immorality or illegality here) with good cheer even if you thought of a ‘better way’. Learn how to see things from other peoples’ perspective… this helps in discernment of spirits as well as helping others discern their OWN vocational calling.

Our Church is very rich and vast and huge… there’s no “one size fits all” spirituality, charism or group. Everyone has their place at the table if we’re all united in the faith (TRUTH) and morals (WAY) that lead to communion in Jesus in time and eternity (LIFE).

Thank you, that was quite positively put, and in a way that doesn’t polarize. I do appreciate the advice and I will follow what you have written! We have a priest here who says, “when in doubt, spout!” and that seems to be the same as you are suggesting.

 

[Brain]

So I’ve been in the Seminary for 2 years now, and I must admit there are normal human relationships that can certainly make one spin. But all in all, the reality of my seminary formation has been great, either way I go in life (Priesthood, Married Life, Single, whatever).

What I must say however is there are general attitudes that drive me a bit up the wall. Some guys say, “Just keep your mouth shut and move through” because they feel as if the place doesn’t fit their political stance on certain issues. Of course, my feeling is that you should be honest either way, and that way they get to discern your calling as the Church ought to. But I was wondering what other people thought abou this “keep your mouth shut” attitude. I certainly understand it, but can’t help but feel that it is a bit dishonest.

**Amen, Brother. My seminary is very small (13 men) and we are very open with each other and our faculty, but our culture of secrecy tends to be “don’t say that in front of your bishop, vocation director, or the general public” or more colloquially “put it in your secret place.” It really makes me mad because if you are dishonest, even by omission, to your bishop or diocese, *what the heck kind of priest (or laymen for that matter) will you be?! **There is a value in speaking prudently (That is not bringing up contentious things willy-nilly or in inappropriate situations), of course, but that in NO WAY involves hiding the truth or lying.
*

 

[Brain]

Amen, Brother. My seminary is very small (13 men) and we are very open with each other and our faculty, but our culture of secrecy tends to be “don’t say that in front of your bishop, vocation director, or the general public” or more colloquially “put it in your secret place.” It really makes me mad because if you are dishonest, even by omission, to your bishop or diocese, what the heck kind of priest (or laymen for that matter) will you be?! There is a value in speaking prudently (That is not bringing up contentious things willy-nilly or in inappropriate situations), of course, but that in NO WAY involves hiding the truth or lying.

 

[ChrisPietraszko]

**Amen, Brother. My seminary is very small (13 men) and we are very open with each other and our faculty, but our culture of secrecy tends to be “don’t say that in front of your bishop, vocation director, or the general public” or more colloquially “put it in your secret place.” It really makes me mad because if you are dishonest, even by omission, to your bishop or diocese, *what the heck kind of priest (or laymen for that matter) will you be?! ***There is a value in speaking prudently (That is not bringing up contentious things willy-nilly or in inappropriate situations), of course, but that in NO WAY involves hiding the truth or lying.

I agree, I often think about these people who are dishonest. One priest said, "you better not be prostrated on your day of ordination and say, “If only these people knew who I was”. Of course I certainly don’t mean that we are the sum of our beliefs.

I will conclusively say that it isn’t the seminarians decision to become a priest, it is the Church’s through the Local authority being the discerner of that decision. If you are not honest, with any political view, can you really say you submitted yourself to the authority of the Church.