In what sense do matter, energy, and the astronomical universe exist?

[PseuTonym]

Each of infinitely many positive whole numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, … exists. However, in many philosophies, it is insisted that the number of material entities is necessarily finite.

Some materialist philosophers ask: where is God? In other words, if God exists, then it is presumed that God must have a physical body, and God and his body must be somewhere in the astronomical universe that God created. One could ask such a philosopher: where on the Scrabble board is the inventor of Scrabble? Where on the Monopoly board is the inventor of Monopoly? So, these are legendary and fictional characters in creation myths. Scrabble and Monopoly have always existed. Those board games are naturally occurring things like stars, mountains, rivers, bird nests, beaver dams, the Great Pyramids in Egypt, the footprints on the moon, and the Voyager space probe.

Our experiences are real to us, but is it possible that they all take place in a temporary realm that is created by something like the beta version of a computer program? Since ancient times, prophets have foretold a time of cataclysmic change in the future. What if that change, although accompanied by stress and natural disasters, is fundamentally about the fulfillment of a plan to bring all living things into a real and permanent universe that will replace the one we now live in?

 

[GEddie]

Sounds great as science fiction, but impossible to investigate meaningfully.

ICXC NIKA

 

[empther]

From the thread with no name:

It was a technical malfunction, not a parody of philosophers who write empty words dressed up as deep philosophical inquiry.

Thank you for giving us an example of empty words dressed up as deep philosophy
in post 1

 

[George_Stegmeir]

What do you guys expect from someone who has just taken a basic philosophy course in college?

 

[PseuTonym]

I regret that I posted this thread in this Philosophy forum. I should have posted this thread in the forum for Communication Issues.

However, I do not yet have access to that forum. Perhaps it doesn’t exist. However, it has been proposed.

You can read the proposal in the Suggestion Box via the following link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=844077

 

[ClearWater]

Each of infinitely many positive whole numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, … exists. However, in many philosophies, it is insisted that the number of material entities is necessarily finite.

Some materialist philosophers ask: where is God? In other words, if God exists, then it is presumed that God must have a physical body, and God and his body must be somewhere in the astronomical universe that God created. One could ask such a philosopher: where on the Scrabble board is the inventor of Scrabble? Where on the Monopoly board is the inventor of Monopoly? So, these are legendary and fictional characters in creation myths. Scrabble and Monopoly have always existed. Those board games are naturally occurring things like stars, mountains, rivers, bird nests, beaver dams, the Great Pyramids in Egypt, the footprints on the moon, and the Voyager space probe.

Our experiences are real to us, but is it possible that they all take place in a temporary realm that is created by something like the beta version of a computer program? Since ancient times, prophets have foretold a time of cataclysmic change in the future. What if that change, although accompanied by stress and natural disasters, is fundamentally about the fulfillment of a plan to bring all living things into a real and permanent universe that will replace the one we now live in?

Do you mean like the new heaven and new earth from Revelations?

 

[PseuTonym]

Do you mean like the new heaven and new earth from Revelations?

I’m doubtful that any clearness will be achieved by introducing into this thread a discussion of the final book of the Bible. To me, it’s one of the most difficult books of the Bible to even begin to understand.

I admit that it was at least at the edge of my awareness. The more immediate trigger for this thread was the following:

In this entire universe, why are humans that special in God’s eyes?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=844160
Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Philosophy

Maybe I should also include a link to the difficult book that people will be reading when we are dead and our discussion threads forgotten:
veritasbible.com/drb/read/Apocalypse

 

[Beryllos]

Each of infinitely many positive whole numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, … exists. However, in many philosophies, it is insisted that the number of material entities is necessarily finite.

Some materialist philosophers ask: where is God? In other words, if God exists, then it is presumed that God must have a physical body, and God and his body must be somewhere in the astronomical universe that God created. One could ask such a philosopher: where on the Scrabble board is the inventor of Scrabble? Where on the Monopoly board is the inventor of Monopoly? So, these are legendary and fictional characters in creation myths. Scrabble and Monopoly have always existed. Those board games are naturally occurring things like stars, mountains, rivers, bird nests, beaver dams, the Great Pyramids in Egypt, the footprints on the moon, and the Voyager space probe.

Our experiences are real to us, but is it possible that they all take place in a temporary realm that is created by something like the beta version of a computer program? Since ancient times, prophets have foretold a time of cataclysmic change in the future. What if that change, although accompanied by stress and natural disasters, is fundamentally about the fulfillment of a plan to bring all living things into a real and permanent universe that will replace the one we now live in?

Matter, energy, (and I would include space and time) and the astronomical universe exist in the sense that God created them, giving them physical existence such as it is.

Here in the Philosophy forum, it is too often asked whether the physical universe is somehow illusory or immaterial, or just a thought in the mind of God. I am inclined to reject those suggestions on the basis that God respects the truth. Why would God deceive our senses regarding the nature of the physical universe? Then there’s an argument based on omnipotence. Why couldn’t God create a real material universe with all the trimmings?

Even so, the physical universe is merely physical. It is not eternal or infinite. It has a limited span in time and in space. Even concepts like time and space are limited. That is, if physical time and space had infinite span, they would still be confined to a certain dimensionality (Einstein would say 4-dimensional spacetime). So you do well to ask whether there is something greater than the physical universe.

Toward the end of your OP, you speculate that the temporary physical universe will be transformed into a permanent “replacement” universe. At least that was my interpretation of your writing. I think that may be too low an expectation. It may be like saying that your rhetorical Monopoly board will be transformed into a real city with real streets, properties, railroads, a jail, and of course real money. But “real life” is much more than that. In a similar way, I imagine eternity is much more than a scaled-up version of the physical universe.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Whats the question again? The wonder of life has you wondering if it must all be a designed and created computer program?

 

[Qoeleth]

Each of infinitely many positive whole numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, … exists. However, in many philosophies, it is insisted that the number of material entities is necessarily finite.

Some materialist philosophers ask: where is God? In other words, if God exists, then it is presumed that God must have a physical body, and God and his body must be somewhere in the astronomical universe that God created. One could ask such a philosopher: where on the Scrabble board is the inventor of Scrabble? Where on the Monopoly board is the inventor of Monopoly? So, these are legendary and fictional characters in creation myths. Scrabble and Monopoly have always existed. Those board games are naturally occurring things like stars, mountains, rivers, bird nests, beaver dams, the Great Pyramids in Egypt, the footprints on the moon, and the Voyager space probe.

Our experiences are real to us, but is it possible that they all take place in a temporary realm that is created by something like the beta version of a computer program? Since ancient times, prophets have foretold a time of cataclysmic change in the future. What if that change, although accompanied by stress and natural disasters, is fundamentally about the fulfillment of a plan to bring all living things into a real and permanent universe that will replace the one we now live in?

You have raised a very good question, and the perspective you offer is perfectly consistent with orthodox Catholic theology. An important question is what do we mean by ‘exist’. A materialist limits the extent of existence to include on material existence. Such a definition, by its very nature, excludes the possibility of God.

The ‘universe’ as we experience it has only a relative, or, if you like, apparent existence. Absolute existence is proper to God alone, as Augustine et al maintain. The fact that what we have now is somehow less-than-real is reflected in the very words of Christ, refering to “True life”, “True bread”, etc. in contrast to their temporal version.

True riches are in Heaven, true joy is in Heaven, true life is in Heaven. Everything we have now is merely a reflection, a kind of ‘relative reality’, a play of appearances.

What do you guys expect from someone who has just taken a basic philosophy course in college?

Oh, is this post from someone who has just started philosophy studies? Well, it is most impressive, showing clear insight and clarity of expression.

 

[Qoeleth]

Matter, energy, (and I would include space and time) and the astronomical universe exist in the sense that God created them, giving them physical existence such as it is.

Here in the Philosophy forum, it is too often asked whether the physical universe is somehow illusory or immaterial, or just a thought in the mind of God. I am inclined to reject those suggestions on the basis that God respects the truth. Why would God deceive our senses regarding the nature of the physical universe?

But God, through Holy Scripture, repeatedly described the ‘merely apparent’ nature of the universe. Indeed, we are instructed to believe in a unseen realities, rather than visibile ‘realities.’

Clearly, ‘reality’ must be something which can exist in degrees- from Absolute “I AM WHO AM”, to relative ('e.g. “all the nations are account as emptiness and less than nothing.”). Now, if reality is something relative, it would seem that the material universe is low on the scale of relative reality.

How about this scheme?

God is absolute reality.
The absolute Good, Truth, Justice, etc. have very degrees of reality.
The human soul is has a quite high degree of reality.
Rational ideas have a reasonable degree of reality.
The physical universe has a low degree of reality.
Dreams, fantasies, delusions, hallucinations, have the lowest degree of reality.

Evidence for the low degree of reality of the physical world is that it is in a constant state of flux, and nothing in it is ever perfect.

 

[PseuTonym]

Whats the question again? The wonder of life has you wondering if it must all be a designed and created computer program?

(Selective emphasis added by PseuTonym, for identifying one non-monotonous tone of voice reading. However, because PseuTonym selected what to emphasize, the result might communicate something that Paddy Walker didn’t intend.)

Are you talking about life in the biological sense, or life in the sense of my own thoughts and other personal experiences?

Unless we are responding to two different things, and talking at cross-purposes, after the title of the thread, the first thing that you see is this:

Each of infinitely many positive whole numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, … exists. However, in many philosophies, it is insisted that the number of material entities is necessarily finite.

You don’t need to know what a prion is, or know that there’s a difference between a bacterium and a virus to understand the concept of a perfect circle on a flat surface.

For a square, it’s obvious that the length of the perimeter is exactly four times the length of any one side. It’s then fairly obvious that pi is less than four. However, it’s more than three.

Archimedes determined an upper bound for the value of pi and a lower bound for the value of pi. Nowadays, the first digits of pi are common knowledge: 3.141592 …

Are circles part of the wonder of life? Is pi part of the wonder of life? Your answers to those two question will help me to understand what idea you had in mind when you asked me a question that involved the phrase “wonder of life.” If I don’t understand the idea, then I will be responding only to your words, and we won’t understand each other.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

(Selective emphasis added by PseuTonym, for identifying one non-monotonous tone of voice reading. However, because PseuTonym selected what to emphasize, the result might communicate something that Paddy Walker didn’t intend.)

Are you talking about life in the biological sense, or life in the sense of my own thoughts and other personal experiences?

Unless we are responding to two different things, and talking at cross-purposes, after the title of the thread, the first thing that you see is this:

You don’t need to know what a prion is, or know that there’s a difference between a bacterium and a virus to understand the concept of a perfect circle on a flat surface.

For a square, it’s obvious that the length of the perimeter is exactly four times the length of any one side. It’s then fairly obvious that pi is less than four. However, it’s more than three.

Archimedes determined an upper bound for the value of pi and a lower bound for the value of pi. Nowadays, the first digits of pi are common knowledge: 3.141592 …

Are circles part of the wonder of life? Is pi part of the wonder of life? Your answers to those two question will help me to understand what idea you had in mind when you asked me a question that involved the phrase “wonder of life.” If I don’t understand the idea, then I will be responding only to your words, and we won’t understand each other.

I was actually looking at this; "Our experiences are real to us, but is it possible that they all take place in a temporary realm that is created by something like the beta version of a computer program? ", and wondering why a person would wonder about this. What is it that makes us wonder about life and create wonderful ideas to explain the wonder of life to ourselves. Maybe because of the wonder of life.

 

[PseuTonym]

Can I ask again, or is it an old question that was fully answered back in the year 2013?

In what sense do matter, energy, and the astronomical universe exist?

 

[GEddie]

Can I ask again, or is it an old question that was fully answered back in the year 2013?

In what sense do matter, energy, and the astronomical universe exist?

They exist in the same manner that we do; in fact more solidly, as our being is contingent on the physical universe.

ICXC NIKA