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Link0126
Guest
I know it’s a biblical concept and that Catholics have a different idea about it than Calvinists. but in what way does it differ?
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
There is no one Catholic viewpoint on the subject. In fact, I’m very late in responding to another thread on this topic, in which another Catholic, extremely confident of his own views on the subject, took objection to mine. 
There are various different Catholic schools of thought on the subject, as well as those who either reject or proclaim ignorance concerning the truth of any of the schools and just call it all a mystery.
There are some key points that a Catholic must hold to, bounderies which must not be crossed despite the considerable theological diversity allowed concerning this subject. A few off the top of my head are:
Here is a classic article from This Rock Magazine essentially exploring how close a Catholic can get to Calvinism without violating Church teaching. I should note that the author has made clear elsewhere that he does not, today at least, necessarily adhere to the more or less “Thomist” position he described (when he was still a fairly new convert from Calvinism, and thus interested in showing how close to Calvinism a Catholic really can get), but he shows pretty well how far in one particular direction a Catholic may go on the predestination spectrum.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
There are various different Catholic schools of thought on the subject, as well as those who either reject or proclaim ignorance concerning the truth of any of the schools and just call it all a mystery.
There are some key points that a Catholic must hold to, bounderies which must not be crossed despite the considerable theological diversity allowed concerning this subject. A few off the top of my head are:
- Free will is real (exactly how you define “free will” seems to differ, but those like Luther and Calivin who explicitly denied that the will is free would, at the very least, be contradicting the traditional language of the Church).
- All human beings are given sufficient grace for salvation. Thus, those who are not saved rejected this sufficient grace. Exactly what this means is again disputed, but it’s something a classic Calivinist would deny entirely rather than just interpreting it one way or another.
- God predestines the elect to heaven, but does not predestine the reprobate to hell in the same manner. The idea of “double predestination” is often condemned as Calvinist, though I’m not sure all Calvinists believe it in quite the way many Catholics think they do.
- Once in a state of grace it is possible to fall out of grace (Calvinists deny this, while Arminians accept it). After falling from grace, it is possible to repent and have that state of grace restored (classical Arminians deny this, but Wesleyan Arminians accept it).
Here is a classic article from This Rock Magazine essentially exploring how close a Catholic can get to Calvinism without violating Church teaching. I should note that the author has made clear elsewhere that he does not, today at least, necessarily adhere to the more or less “Thomist” position he described (when he was still a fairly new convert from Calvinism, and thus interested in showing how close to Calvinism a Catholic really can get), but he shows pretty well how far in one particular direction a Catholic may go on the predestination spectrum.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
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MinkBDavenport
Guest
Aelred Minor posted a fine response!
This is my take on it - and I make no pretense to be expert by any stretch of the imagination.
Predestination, as the Scripture mentions, cf Romans 8:29, 30 & Ephesians 1:5, 11, etc., acknowledges that God had a plan in the beginning.
That plan was for humanity to be united with Him.
The Revelation mentions “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” So it seems clear enough - based upon that verse - that the plan for our salvation - our union with our Creator - originated from the beginning of time.
Thus, our “destination” was “pre-determined” by the Maker.
Now, as we all understand, however, a pesky thing called “free will” enters into the equation. Will we reject His overtures of love toward us, or not?
Think of it as a grand design you have for a lovely evening meal with friends - one which you host. However, some things go awry, your soufflé goes flat, your biscuits are burned, and the casserole becomes soggy… but the roast is perfect. And so, you make do with what you have on hand. Maybe the casserole isn’t ~that~ bad, and perhaps the soufflé is tasty, though not an award winner, and there are a few biscuits able to be salvaged.
Your guests - amidst the culinary chaos - find their time with you to be utterly delightful, and the dinner is perceived as a smash hit.
Was your design - your “predetermined” will at question?
No. It was for the establishment of an environment to facilitate fellowship.
Were the circumstances surrounding the event less then desirable? Yes. Was the event a failure? No.
Why?
Your guests came, even in the midst of seeming culinary failure… simply to be with you. And THAT was the grand success - the ultimate goal which you had predestined.
Had your guests not come, they would have missed out on your plan of love that included them.
Yes, it’s an imperfect analogy, but I hope it works to illustrate the point.
This is my take on it - and I make no pretense to be expert by any stretch of the imagination.
Predestination, as the Scripture mentions, cf Romans 8:29, 30 & Ephesians 1:5, 11, etc., acknowledges that God had a plan in the beginning.
That plan was for humanity to be united with Him.
The Revelation mentions “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” So it seems clear enough - based upon that verse - that the plan for our salvation - our union with our Creator - originated from the beginning of time.
Thus, our “destination” was “pre-determined” by the Maker.
Now, as we all understand, however, a pesky thing called “free will” enters into the equation. Will we reject His overtures of love toward us, or not?
Think of it as a grand design you have for a lovely evening meal with friends - one which you host. However, some things go awry, your soufflé goes flat, your biscuits are burned, and the casserole becomes soggy… but the roast is perfect. And so, you make do with what you have on hand. Maybe the casserole isn’t ~that~ bad, and perhaps the soufflé is tasty, though not an award winner, and there are a few biscuits able to be salvaged.
Your guests - amidst the culinary chaos - find their time with you to be utterly delightful, and the dinner is perceived as a smash hit.
Was your design - your “predetermined” will at question?
No. It was for the establishment of an environment to facilitate fellowship.
Were the circumstances surrounding the event less then desirable? Yes. Was the event a failure? No.
Why?
Your guests came, even in the midst of seeming culinary failure… simply to be with you. And THAT was the grand success - the ultimate goal which you had predestined.
Had your guests not come, they would have missed out on your plan of love that included them.
Yes, it’s an imperfect analogy, but I hope it works to illustrate the point.
J
jkc313
Guest
There are plenty of Presbyterians that would disagree with your statement that Calvin did not believe in free will. In fact, many will go to great lengths explaining how free will and predestination are NOT mutually exclusiveThere is no one Catholic viewpoint on the subject. In fact, I’m very late in responding to another thread on this topic, in which another Catholic, extremely confident of his own views on the subject, took objection to mine.
There are various different Catholic schools of thought on the subject, as well as those who either reject or proclaim ignorance concerning the truth of any of the schools and just call it all a mystery.
There are some key points that a Catholic must hold to, bounderies which must not be crossed despite the considerable theological diversity allowed concerning this subject. A few off the top of my head are:
There are plenty of other Catholic teachings that touch on this topic as well, but those four are the first that come to my mind. Questions that remain unresolved by Magisterial authority include whether predestination comes logically before the actual decisions of our wills or after, whether there is an intrinsically efficacious kind of grace needed to accept grace, whether a given person put in a given situation can only respond in one way or in several, etc.
- Free will is real (exactly how you define “free will” seems to differ, but those like Luther and Calivin who explicitly denied that the will is free would, at the very least, be contradicting the traditional language of the Church).
- All human beings are given sufficient grace for salvation. Thus, those who are not saved rejected this sufficient grace. Exactly what this means is again disputed, but it’s something a classic Calivinist would deny entirely rather than just interpreting it one way or another.
- God predestines the elect to heaven, but does not predestine the reprobate to hell in the same manner. The idea of “double predestination” is often condemned as Calvinist, though I’m not sure all Calvinists believe it in quite the way many Catholics think they do.
- Once in a state of grace it is possible to fall out of grace (Calvinists deny this, while Arminians accept it). After falling from grace, it is possible to repent and have that state of grace restored (classical Arminians deny this, but Wesleyan Arminians accept it).
Here is a classic article from This Rock Magazine essentially exploring how close a Catholic can get to Calvinism without violating Church teaching. I should note that the author has made clear elsewhere that he does not, today at least, necessarily adhere to the more or less “Thomist” position he described (when he was still a fairly new convert from Calvinism, and thus interested in showing how close to Calvinism a Catholic really can get), but he shows pretty well how far in one particular direction a Catholic may go on the predestination spectrum.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
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dsmantz
Guest
The New Catholic Encyclopedia found at newadvent.org has a wonderful article on predestination in the Catholic understanding that I could never exceed, especially this late at night.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
I assume you mean the old Catholic Encyclopedia found at newadvent.org (as well as catholic.com). This encyclopedia can be a great resource, but often does not even pretend to be entirely objective. The theological opinions of the writers of the articles frequently comes through in topics like these, which can seem great if you happen to agree with those opinions, not so great if you disagree. The article on predestination is an example of this, as it does not simply set forth what the Church teaches and what various schools believe, but also champions the particular theological viewpoint of the author.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
If Calvin did not in fact deny free will then I’ll stand corrected on that point.
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PJM
Guest
***As I understand their position they accept as FACT that God does in- deed choose who’s going to be saved and who is not WITHOUT application of ones mind, intellect and freewill. Which is anti-biblical. Actually teaching against what the bible does teach. This is MY understanding of there position. PLEASE correct me if I’m in error.
Catholics on the other hand; having frankly a better understanding of God’s unchanageable Nature; teach that “Predestion” belongs to God alone. Meaning that it exist for and within God Himself, being “ALL-Knowing.”
God knows who will CHOOSE salvation for themselves and pay the necessary price and those who just a FREELY will choose NOT to be saved.
Salvation is and MUST BE a personal decision for two valid reasons.
- God can only be Good [God tolerates evil but is NOT the cause of it].
- By God’s choice of design: Humanity alone has what is necessary to LOVE. A mind, a intellect and a FREEWILL which are permnantly connected to our souls and thus enabaled to particiapte in an after life of PAIN and regret, or of eternal Bliss and Happiness.
By virtue of the FACT that we alone of ALL CREATED and living THINGS can"love." Love then becomes the eason for our existence. BUT God desires our love be as perfectb as can be. Thus it MUST be freely given. [READ: Isaiah 43:7,21].
"Predestion DENIES God His RIGHT TO BE PERFECT [which would be voided were he actually to choose wholly by His will who goes to hell and who gets saved. The same is true of humanity; It denies the very and precise reason we are created with a mind, intellect and FREEWILL, and CAN [are Morally Gravely Obligated too] freely say YES to God; or just as freely say NO to God.
So God’s pre-knowledge in NO manner effects our personal life choices. It is, has been and shall always be humanity who decides were we spend eternity. God “Only” affirms our ouw freewill choices.***
God Bless,
Pat
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De_Maria
Guest
The shortest and most simple answer is that God knows who is predestined, but we don’t. Therefore it is up to us to make our election sure:
2 Peter 1:4-10
King James Version (KJV)**
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:**
I don’t know enough about Calvinism to tell you in what it differs with Catholic Teaching on the subject.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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COPLAND_3
Guest
Based on a traditional Catholic position, when it comes to predestination, foreknowledge is the key to understanding it. God knew from the beginning of time who would use their free will to get to heaven or to get to hell. Sort of like a movie that you have seen before, when you go to watch it a second time you already know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. God being all-knowing already knows, and He already knew before He created anything, who were going to be saints or not. God does not make anyone go to hell, but He knows who will use their free-will to go to hell.
Here is a quote from my Study Bible on Romans 1 concerning predestination, which I draw from the greatest Medieval commentary called the Glossa Ordinaria
Here is a quote from my Study Bible on Romans 1 concerning predestination, which I draw from the greatest Medieval commentary called the Glossa Ordinaria
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lutherlic
Guest
We live in time. God does not.
By our free will, we must struggle to make the correct choices – day by day, minute by minute. From our perspective, trapped in time, it can go either way. It is completely up to us. God already knows what we will do, but has not predestined us to do it (i.e. removed or nullified our free will).
By our free will, we must struggle to make the correct choices – day by day, minute by minute. From our perspective, trapped in time, it can go either way. It is completely up to us. God already knows what we will do, but has not predestined us to do it (i.e. removed or nullified our free will).
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