P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie
and/or
Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating
- Status
and/or
Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating
H
HashemEchad
Guest
Christianity came out of Judaism…traditional Judaism, like traditional Catholicism, holds that we do not KNOW for sure where we go when we die.
This is WHY both Jews and Catholics say prayers for the dead…because we both believe in a concept which Catholics call “purgatory” and which we Jews call a place of purgation.
Explain to this guy that his religion arrived too late to be the “real” of ANY religion, and that you find it interesting that the religion Christianity CAME OUT OF, ALSO believes in prayers for the dead that they may be relieved of their sins.
D
DCD
Guest
I am comfortable using that approach but when I do my protestant friends drawback. They like the realtive card when they dialogue with me. I wonder if that is how they witness to non-Catholics?
God Bless,
DCD
H
HashemEchad
Guest
One thing I know about fundamentalists: they seem to REALLY hate Catholicism, but seem to have a “hands off” approach when it comes to Jews (not to say they don’t try to convert us, but they seem to try to do it in a much more loving way, perhaps because of their fear of violating “I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee” in the Torah.)
So…if I were you, I’d take advantage of that fact.
Use their “the Jews can do no wrong” attitude to make them see that EVEN JEWS believe in praying for the dead, and hence, believe we cannot know for sure where we go when we die, and that since Christianity arose out of Judaism…
F
Fisher
Guest
Independent Baptist
Historical Background
Christianity · General Baptist · Particular Baptist
Doctrinal distinctives
Prima and Sola scriptura · Ordinance · Offices · Confessions · Congregationalism · Separation of church and state
Pivotal figures
John Bunyan · Andrew Fuller · Thomas Helwys · John Smyth · Charles Haddon Spurgeon · Roger Williams
Independent Baptist churches (also referred to as Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB) are Christian churches holding to generally Baptist beliefs. Like all Baptists they are characterized by being independent from the authority of denominations and church councils. However, the reason for the distinction, “independent,” is that they eschew even the Baptist conventions or associations in which other Baptist churches participate (although many Independent Baptist churches do belong to fellowships). They remain autonomous and congregationalist in nature and are generally fundamentalist in teaching. The IFB movement is not a denomination per se, but there are similarities that run throughout most Independent Baptist churches.
[edit] History
In the wake of the advancement of modernism and liberalism into National Baptist denominations and conventions in the late 1800s and earlier 1900s in both the United States and England, many Baptist local churches began to feel that the core elements of and doctrines of the Christian Faith, such as the nature of God, the infallibility of the Bible, the literal person of Jesus Christ as both God and man, the nature of the Trinity, the literal resurrection of Christ and the need for Christians to be separate from worldliness were being watered down and abandoned. Although during the same time period mainline denominations were struggling with the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy, many within these local Baptist churches felt that any association with Liberalism/Modernism even in the forum of debate was tantamount to compromise and was therefore unscriptural. As a result many of these local Baptist churches separated from their former denominations and conventions and reestablished themselves as independent churches. Often within these Denominational churches more conservative elements would often set about establishing new Independent Baptist churches instead of remaining within the denominational churches.[1]
[edit] Current developments
In the last 20 to 30 years, the use of the King James Version (King-James-Only Movement) and the use of Contemporary Christian music in worship services, more Calvinistic teaching, and the issue of Lordship salvation have divided many IFB churches.[2]
[edit] Distinguishing elements
Independent Baptist churches are very conservative in their beliefs and many are still conservative in their styles of worship. They tend to reject many things found in many denominational churches because they believe in the doctrine of separation; based on the command to “be ye separate.”[3] They may exclude the following, depending on the individual church:
rock and roll and other forms of modern music, including contemporary Christian music,
dancing
certain contemporary dress styles such as trousers on women or long hair and earrings on men.
visiting movie theaters,
drinking of alcohol,
use of tobacco,
sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman, such as premarital sex or any other physical contact [based on the command, “it is better that a man not touch a woman”], extramarital sex, and homosexuality.
and abortion. (in some cases, all forms of birth control are opposed).
They tend also to support conservative American politics, with one notable exception—the general consensus opposes school vouchers, on the basis that such vouchers, if accepted by church-operated schools, would allow the government a “foothold” into the teachings and practices of the individual church and give it authority to dictate what could and could not be taught.
[edit] King James Bible debate
Many Independent Baptist churches and associated educational institutions support exclusive use of the King James Bible or other Bible translations based on the Textus Receptus (or Received Text). Greek New Testament and the Masoretic (but non Biblia Hebraica or Leningrad Text) Hebrew Old Testament.[4]
.
[edit] Outreach
Many Independent Baptist churches have very organized outreach ministries such as weekly “soul winning,” in which groups go and evangelize areas surrounding the church building. Many churches will also have “bus ministries”, in which volunteers drive church buses or vans to surrounding areas to bring people to the church’s services. A few still practice “street preaching,” the open-air preaching of the Gospel in a public setting such as a park or street corner, though this is very rare. Like many other types of churches, Independent Baptist churches often have prison ministries and send missions or evangelists to other parts of the country or to other countries to start more local churches. [This is done in accordance with Matthew 28 verses 19 & 20. “19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”]
Some Independent Baptist churches have dismayed moderate Baptists and other evangelical Christians by using outreach techniques that many American Christians consider tasteless and inappropriate for modern Western culture.[6] These techniques include marching in local parades with signs urging watchers to repent.[7] Critics say the aggressive techniques used by fundamentalist groups give Christians a bad name.[citation needed] Not all Independent Baptist churches use these techniques, although this technique was widely used in the beginning of the fundamentalist movement.
Historical Background
Christianity · General Baptist · Particular Baptist
Doctrinal distinctives
Prima and Sola scriptura · Ordinance · Offices · Confessions · Congregationalism · Separation of church and state
Pivotal figures
John Bunyan · Andrew Fuller · Thomas Helwys · John Smyth · Charles Haddon Spurgeon · Roger Williams
Independent Baptist churches (also referred to as Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB) are Christian churches holding to generally Baptist beliefs. Like all Baptists they are characterized by being independent from the authority of denominations and church councils. However, the reason for the distinction, “independent,” is that they eschew even the Baptist conventions or associations in which other Baptist churches participate (although many Independent Baptist churches do belong to fellowships). They remain autonomous and congregationalist in nature and are generally fundamentalist in teaching. The IFB movement is not a denomination per se, but there are similarities that run throughout most Independent Baptist churches.
[edit] History
In the wake of the advancement of modernism and liberalism into National Baptist denominations and conventions in the late 1800s and earlier 1900s in both the United States and England, many Baptist local churches began to feel that the core elements of and doctrines of the Christian Faith, such as the nature of God, the infallibility of the Bible, the literal person of Jesus Christ as both God and man, the nature of the Trinity, the literal resurrection of Christ and the need for Christians to be separate from worldliness were being watered down and abandoned. Although during the same time period mainline denominations were struggling with the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy, many within these local Baptist churches felt that any association with Liberalism/Modernism even in the forum of debate was tantamount to compromise and was therefore unscriptural. As a result many of these local Baptist churches separated from their former denominations and conventions and reestablished themselves as independent churches. Often within these Denominational churches more conservative elements would often set about establishing new Independent Baptist churches instead of remaining within the denominational churches.[1]
[edit] Current developments
In the last 20 to 30 years, the use of the King James Version (King-James-Only Movement) and the use of Contemporary Christian music in worship services, more Calvinistic teaching, and the issue of Lordship salvation have divided many IFB churches.[2]
[edit] Distinguishing elements
Independent Baptist churches are very conservative in their beliefs and many are still conservative in their styles of worship. They tend to reject many things found in many denominational churches because they believe in the doctrine of separation; based on the command to “be ye separate.”[3] They may exclude the following, depending on the individual church:
rock and roll and other forms of modern music, including contemporary Christian music,
dancing
certain contemporary dress styles such as trousers on women or long hair and earrings on men.
visiting movie theaters,
drinking of alcohol,
use of tobacco,
sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman, such as premarital sex or any other physical contact [based on the command, “it is better that a man not touch a woman”], extramarital sex, and homosexuality.
and abortion. (in some cases, all forms of birth control are opposed).
They tend also to support conservative American politics, with one notable exception—the general consensus opposes school vouchers, on the basis that such vouchers, if accepted by church-operated schools, would allow the government a “foothold” into the teachings and practices of the individual church and give it authority to dictate what could and could not be taught.
[edit] King James Bible debate
Many Independent Baptist churches and associated educational institutions support exclusive use of the King James Bible or other Bible translations based on the Textus Receptus (or Received Text). Greek New Testament and the Masoretic (but non Biblia Hebraica or Leningrad Text) Hebrew Old Testament.[4]
.
[edit] Outreach
Many Independent Baptist churches have very organized outreach ministries such as weekly “soul winning,” in which groups go and evangelize areas surrounding the church building. Many churches will also have “bus ministries”, in which volunteers drive church buses or vans to surrounding areas to bring people to the church’s services. A few still practice “street preaching,” the open-air preaching of the Gospel in a public setting such as a park or street corner, though this is very rare. Like many other types of churches, Independent Baptist churches often have prison ministries and send missions or evangelists to other parts of the country or to other countries to start more local churches. [This is done in accordance with Matthew 28 verses 19 & 20. “19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”]
Some Independent Baptist churches have dismayed moderate Baptists and other evangelical Christians by using outreach techniques that many American Christians consider tasteless and inappropriate for modern Western culture.[6] These techniques include marching in local parades with signs urging watchers to repent.[7] Critics say the aggressive techniques used by fundamentalist groups give Christians a bad name.[citation needed] Not all Independent Baptist churches use these techniques, although this technique was widely used in the beginning of the fundamentalist movement.
F
Fisher
Guest
as a Jew how do you get God to forgive your sins do you still kill bulls and goats?One thing I know about fundamentalists: they seem to REALLY hate Catholicism, but seem to have a “hands off” approach when it comes to Jews (not to say they don’t try to convert us, but they seem to try to do it in a much more loving way, perhaps because of their fear of violating “I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee” in the Torah.)
So…if I were you, I’d take advantage of that fact.
F
Fisher
Guest
18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh
his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that
useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter,
or a witch,
18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a
wizard, or a necromancer.
18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the
LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth
drive them out from before thee.
F
Fisher
Guest
Jesus Was Seen By Over 500 People After He Arose
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he ROSE AGAIN the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above **five hundred brethren **at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time” (1st Corinthians 15:3-8).
The Bible not only declares that Jesus arose from the grave but also tells us of all the people who saw Jesus in His resurrected body (a physical body). Jesus was seen at the tomb by Mary and others, he was also seen by Cephas, He was also seen by the twelve disciples, He was also seen by over FIVE HUNDRED disciples at ONE TIME, He was seen by the Apostle Paul himself on the road to Damascus. Jesus did not raise up from the dead in secret; on the contrary, He appeared unto literally hundreds of people. “For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; FOR THIS THING WAS NOT DONE IN A CORNER. King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian” (Acts 26:26-28). The Apostle Paul was witnessing to King Agrippa concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. The king admitted that he almost became a Christian, what held him back? Why didn’t he get saved? Only God knows. How sad that so many people will go to hell, having missed Heaven by a thread. Paul explained to King Agrippa that Christ died, was buried and arose again and these things were NOT done in a secret corner. Jesus was crucified before a multitude of people, He was buried in a secure tomb with constant guard watch, He was miraculously raised up and seen of Literally hundreds of people. This was no mere rumor started by some religious group. The evidence was overwhelmingly in favor of what Paul was saying to the King, so much so that the King was tempted to trust Christ but He chose foolishly not to do so. Oh how foolish was that man! I’ll guarantee he regrets his decision now!!! He is suffering in hell for his foolish unbelief. Acts 26:28, “…ALMOST thou persuadest me to be a Christian.” Unfortunately, “Almost” is NOT good enough. I wonder how many people are burning in hell right now that “almost” accepted Christ as Savior but didn’t do so. Why play with God?
J
JustaServant
Guest
From my blog:
Independent, Fundamental Baptist
Fundamentalists love the designation “independent, fundamental Baptist”. The problem, first, is this:
They are not “independent (which to them means non-denominational)”.
The term “denomination” generally referred to Protestant churches for the sake of “denominating” themselves from other Protestant churches. “Independent, fundamental, Baptist” churches are a denomination because it is a name applied (“denominated”) to these churches. It has nothing to do with the form of church government. Each church is connected by a “Bible college” or a “camp”.
“Fundamental” refers to the “fundamentals” of the Christian faith. The problem is that they are rather choosy about what those “fundamentals” are, taking away fundamentals they disagree with (Sacraments, Eucharist), and adding (Rapture, Premillenialism), “fundamentals” that have never been a part of the Historic Christian faith.
Fundamentalists are “anti-creedal”, they will not acknowledge the historic creeds of the Church claiming: “The Bible is our creed”, which becomes very subjective. To claim “sola scriptura” presents problems because each person interprets that phrase, and the Bible, differently. There simply is no authority. Without any authority, many fundamentalists fall into the heresies of the past. For example, many fundamentalists have begun to deny the doctrine of original sin, a heresy the Church dealt with centuries ago. Once you deny the doctrine of original sin, other doctrines follow like dominoes, the Virgin birth, the impeccability and (eventually) the Deity of Christ. Many take a modalistic view of the Trinity, another ancient heresy. Some deny the need for repentance in regard to salvation. Without any doctrinal authority, “fundamentalism” become very “non-fundamentalist”. Many fundamentalist churches have a “doctrinal statement”. The problem comes from the “doctrines” within it that were never part of Historic Christianity.
Baptist?
Their claim to be Baptist is a problem as well. Baptists originated out of the Reformation. Fundamentalist claim never to have been part of the Reformation and state Baptists predate the Reformation, and in fact, finds its roots in the Early Church. This is accomplished through revisionist history with absolutely no historical foundation. The beginnings of this can be traced back to a 19th century in a book entitled: “A Concise History of Baptists" by G.H. Orchard.” In the 20th century, this was shortened in a booklet called “'The Trail of Blood” by J M Carroll.
Many Baptists to this day believe this is a historically accurate portrayal of history. Though rejected by historians, many Baptists understand this largely fabricated historical account to be the story of how Christ established the Baptist church (beginning with John the Baptist) and how it remained the one true church loyal to Christ for the past 2000 years. Dr. Carroll seeks to identify the Baptist church of today with nearly every medieval and early heretical group. Some of the ones he cites most often are the Donatists, Montanists, Paulicians, Albegensians, Waldenses, and Anabaptists. His claim is best refuted by simply examining who these heretics were and what they taught. In all cases it is a far cry from what modern Baptists believe.
If the “true Church” was an “underground” Church until the Reformation (which they claim not be a part of anyway), there is a problem with the very words of Christ. He said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against” the Church. Trail of Blood history turns Jesus into a liar.
In this, only one conclusion can be reached.
“Independent Fundamental Baptists” are neither independent, fundamental, nor Baptist.
Independent, Fundamental Baptist
Fundamentalists love the designation “independent, fundamental Baptist”. The problem, first, is this:
They are not “independent (which to them means non-denominational)”.
The term “denomination” generally referred to Protestant churches for the sake of “denominating” themselves from other Protestant churches. “Independent, fundamental, Baptist” churches are a denomination because it is a name applied (“denominated”) to these churches. It has nothing to do with the form of church government. Each church is connected by a “Bible college” or a “camp”.
“Fundamental” refers to the “fundamentals” of the Christian faith. The problem is that they are rather choosy about what those “fundamentals” are, taking away fundamentals they disagree with (Sacraments, Eucharist), and adding (Rapture, Premillenialism), “fundamentals” that have never been a part of the Historic Christian faith.
Fundamentalists are “anti-creedal”, they will not acknowledge the historic creeds of the Church claiming: “The Bible is our creed”, which becomes very subjective. To claim “sola scriptura” presents problems because each person interprets that phrase, and the Bible, differently. There simply is no authority. Without any authority, many fundamentalists fall into the heresies of the past. For example, many fundamentalists have begun to deny the doctrine of original sin, a heresy the Church dealt with centuries ago. Once you deny the doctrine of original sin, other doctrines follow like dominoes, the Virgin birth, the impeccability and (eventually) the Deity of Christ. Many take a modalistic view of the Trinity, another ancient heresy. Some deny the need for repentance in regard to salvation. Without any doctrinal authority, “fundamentalism” become very “non-fundamentalist”. Many fundamentalist churches have a “doctrinal statement”. The problem comes from the “doctrines” within it that were never part of Historic Christianity.
Baptist?
Their claim to be Baptist is a problem as well. Baptists originated out of the Reformation. Fundamentalist claim never to have been part of the Reformation and state Baptists predate the Reformation, and in fact, finds its roots in the Early Church. This is accomplished through revisionist history with absolutely no historical foundation. The beginnings of this can be traced back to a 19th century in a book entitled: “A Concise History of Baptists" by G.H. Orchard.” In the 20th century, this was shortened in a booklet called “'The Trail of Blood” by J M Carroll.
Many Baptists to this day believe this is a historically accurate portrayal of history. Though rejected by historians, many Baptists understand this largely fabricated historical account to be the story of how Christ established the Baptist church (beginning with John the Baptist) and how it remained the one true church loyal to Christ for the past 2000 years. Dr. Carroll seeks to identify the Baptist church of today with nearly every medieval and early heretical group. Some of the ones he cites most often are the Donatists, Montanists, Paulicians, Albegensians, Waldenses, and Anabaptists. His claim is best refuted by simply examining who these heretics were and what they taught. In all cases it is a far cry from what modern Baptists believe.
If the “true Church” was an “underground” Church until the Reformation (which they claim not be a part of anyway), there is a problem with the very words of Christ. He said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against” the Church. Trail of Blood history turns Jesus into a liar.
In this, only one conclusion can be reached.
“Independent Fundamental Baptists” are neither independent, fundamental, nor Baptist.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
Check the links at the bottom of this post, in my sig line.
as a Jew how do you get God to forgive your sins do you still kill bulls and goats?
Judaism never required ONLY the shedding of blood for remission of sin…Proverbs 16:6 attests to this, among other passages.
Blood is only ONE of SEVERAL ways to atone.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
Do you understand what necromancy is? It is trying to communicate with the dead.
Praying FOR the dead is not the same as COMMUNICATING WITH the dead. The prayers are addressed TO GOD, not to the dead people.
- Status