Indulgences applied to the dead?

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ExLuxLucis

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Hello all,

I can understand how indulgences for remission of punishment for sin can be applied to the living, who perform the indulgence. However, I am having difficulty understanding how indulgences and their remission of punishment can be applied to the dead. I know that there is a passage in Maccabees about this, but I don’t understand how that passage can be correct, either.

Isn’t applying the remissions gained by indulgence-related activities (e.g praying the rosary) to the dead in Purgatory kind of like giving them a free gift, something they haven’t worked for themselves? Could someone enlighten me? Thanks.
 
Think of it this way. Let’s say I’m driving down the road, decide to go over the speed limit, and so transgress the law. What happens? I get caught by the cops. They issue a fine. That’s like God’s justice demanding a certain amount of recompense for our sins. We can work this off on earth by prayers and good works, which would be like paying the fine.

Let’s say I can’t or won’t pay the fine in full, what happens then is that I will get sentenced to a short spell in jail - 30 days or something. That’s like us going through purgatory to work off those punishments that we haven’t attended to on earth.

Note that I can get out of jail at any time during those 30 days by paying the fine, of course. Justice demands the one or the other, but not both, and allows me to swap. But as I said I either can’t or won’t pay the money - that’s like souls in purgatory, who cannot gain indulgences for themselves and must simply ‘grin and bear’ their purgation.

Let’s say I’ve got a nice friend who feels sorry for me and wants to help. He or she fronts up to the judge and says ‘look, I’ve got some money set aside, I’d like to pay the fine on Lily’s behalf, please let me do so and let her out of jail’. That’s something that happens very frequently - people have fines or bail money put up for them by someone else, and are released from custody because of the generosity of others.

That’s exactly what God does! The indulgences we earn on behalf of the souls in purgatory are simply us paying their fine to get them out of custody earlier. Does the judge care that the friend is paying the fine instead of the person forking out their own money? Of course not, justice demands that that fine be paid, it does not necessarily demand that it MUST be money the person themselves earned.

If it were otherwise how could Jesus pay even part of the price for our sins, as He did by His death on the Cross? If no substitution is allowed? Of course if He did so, so can we (although affecting a person’s time in purgatory isn’t a hill of beans compared to His saving work, of course).
 
Hello all,

I can understand how indulgences for remission of punishment for sin can be applied to the living, who perform the indulgence. However, I am having difficulty understanding how indulgences and their remission of punishment can be applied to the dead. I know that there is a passage in Maccabees about this, but I don’t understand how that passage can be correct, either.

Isn’t applying the remissions gained by indulgence-related activities (e.g praying the rosary) to the dead in Purgatory kind of like giving them a free gift, something they haven’t worked for themselves? Could someone enlighten me? Thanks.
All grace is a free gift - none of us can earn our forgiveness. That’s why Jesus died for us! And if the soul is in purgatory, it means that they accepted Jesus’ gift of forgiveness during their lives, but died before being perfectly conformed to His image.

That is once a sin is forgiven, the after-effects may remain. The neighbor’s broken window is still broken, even if your neighbor forgave your child for smashing it. So - you can make the child pay for the broken window (that’s atonement), or you can pay for it yourself (that’s indulgence). Or some random stranger on the street can pay for it, just to be kind.

That’s an over-simplified answer, but perhaps it helps?
 
@ExLux,

Lets start this way, how familiar are you with the concept of redemptive suffering?
 
Note that Saint John urges us to pray for sinners -
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
1 John 5:16
 
Think of it this way. Let’s say I’m driving down the road, decide to go over the speed limit, and so transgress the law. What happens? I get caught by the cops. They issue a fine. That’s like God’s justice demanding a certain amount of recompense for our sins. We can work this off on earth by prayers and good works, which would be like paying the fine.

Let’s say I can’t or won’t pay the fine in full, what happens then is that I will get sentenced to a short spell in jail - 30 days or something. That’s like us going through purgatory to work off those punishments that we haven’t attended to on earth.

Note that I can get out of jail at any time during those 30 days by paying the fine, of course. Justice demands the one or the other, but not both, and allows me to swap. But as I said I either can’t or won’t pay the money - that’s like souls in purgatory, who cannot gain indulgences for themselves and must simply ‘grin and bear’ their purgation.

Let’s say I’ve got a nice friend who feels sorry for me and wants to help. He or she fronts up to the judge and says ‘look, I’ve got some money set aside, I’d like to pay the fine on Lily’s behalf, please let me do so and let her out of jail’. That’s something that happens very frequently - people have fines or bail money put up for them by someone else, and are released from custody because of the generosity of others.

That’s exactly what God does! The indulgences we earn on behalf of the souls in purgatory are simply us paying their fine to get them out of custody earlier. Does the judge care that the friend is paying the fine instead of the person forking out their own money? Of course not, justice demands that that fine be paid, it does not necessarily demand that it MUST be money the person themselves earned.

If it were otherwise how could Jesus pay even part of the price for our sins, as He did by His death on the Cross? If no substitution is allowed? Of course if He did so, so can we (although affecting a person’s time in purgatory isn’t a hill of beans compared to His saving work, of course).
You need to read andstudy the bible. If this is truly what you believe then you are in a lot of trouble. How cn any one pay for their own sins. That is why Jesus had to die. If we could be bought out of purgatory, which is no such a place in the first place, why in the world would Jesus needed to come and suffer for our sins. Jesus paid it all in full, if you die without im as your Lord and Saviour then you will diein your sins and burn eternally in the lake of fire.
 
Dear ExLuxLucis,
Hello all,

I can understand how indulgences for remission of punishment for sin can be applied to the living, who perform the indulgence. However, I am having difficulty understanding how indulgences and their remission of punishment can be applied to the dead. I know that there is a passage in Maccabees about this, but I don’t understand how that passage can be correct, either.

Isn’t applying the remissions gained by indulgence-related activities (e.g praying the rosary) to the dead in Purgatory kind of like giving them a free gift, something they haven’t worked for themselves? Could someone enlighten me? Thanks.
Doesn’t Scripture say that in the Body of Christ, we are to share each others sorrows and joys? Are not those in Pugatory part of the Body of Christ?

Blessings
 
All grace is a free gift - none of us can earn our forgiveness. That’s why Jesus died for us! And if the soul is in purgatory, it means that they accepted Jesus’ gift of forgiveness during their lives, but died before being perfectly conformed to His image.

That is once a sin is forgiven, the after-effects may remain. The neighbor’s broken window is still broken, even if your neighbor forgave your child for smashing it. So - you can make the child pay for the broken window (that’s atonement), or you can pay for it yourself (that’s indulgence). Or some random stranger on the street can pay for it, just to be kind.

That’s an over-simplified answer, but perhaps it helps?
Please wake up and study your bible. You cannot pay for your own wrongs. No one else can pay for them neither. That is why Jesus had to die for you, to pay the sin debt in full. This was a teaching of the CC to scare people into thinking if they gave money then their love one would be left out of purgatory. It is a false teaching. This is what Martin Luther 99 thesis was all about. Condemning this false teaching.
 
Please wake up and study your bible. You cannot pay for your own wrongs. No one else can pay for them neither. That is why Jesus had to die for you, to pay the sin debt in full. This was a teaching of the CC to scare people into thinking if they gave money then their love one would be left out of purgatory. It is a false teaching. This is what Martin Luther 99 thesis was all about. Condemning this false teaching.
One cannot put it much clearer than that brother, it is very simple, why add to it. I was RC for 43 years, and I am very aware of what you are saying. Ralph
 
@ExLux,

Lets start this way, how familiar are you with the concept of redemptive suffering?
Redemptive suffering… could you explain it to me and how it applies to indulgences and the dead?

Thanks.
 
Redemptive suffering… could you explain it to me and how it applies to indulgences and the dead?

Thanks.
Redemptive suffering goes to the very core of Christianity. Beleive it or not, it is the very mechinism by which we, the people of Earth, have become God’s childeren and are saved. It was Christ’s suffering on the cross which redeemed us all, and here’s the catch, it also redeemed the dead as we see from 1 Peter 3 but also the dead:
1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
Haydock:
1Pe 3:19 In which (to wit, soul or spirit) also he came, and preached to those spirits who were in prison. The true and common interpretation of this place seems to be, that the soul of Christ, after the separation from the body and before the resurrection, descended to a place in the interior parts of the earth, called hell in that which we call the apostles’ creed, (sometimes called Abraham’s bosom, sometimes Limbus Patrum [Limbo of the Fathers], a place where were detained all the souls of the patriarchs, prophets, and just men, as it were in prison) and preached to these spirits in this prison; i.e. brought them this happy news, that he who was their Redeemer, who opened as it were heaven’s gates. Among these were many who had been formerly at first incredulous in the time of Noe [Noah], who would not take warning from his preparing and building the ark, but it may be reasonably supposed that many of them repented of their sins when they saw the danger approaching, and before they perished by the waters of the deluge, so that they died at least not guilty of eternal damnation; because, though they were sinners, yet they worshipped the true God, for we do not find any proofs of idolatry before the deluge. These then, and all the souls of the just, Christ descended to free from their captivity, from their prison, and to lead them at his ascension triumphant with him into heaven. The Church of England cannot quarrel with this exposition, which seems altogether conformable to the third of their thirty-nine articles, which at present runs thus: “As Christ died for us, and was buried, so also it is to be believed that he went down into hell.” It is thus expressed in the articles under queen Elizabeth, in the year 1562; and in the articles put out ten years before, in the year 1552, in the fourth year of king Edward the sixth, the words were: "that the body of Christ lay in the grave until his resurrection, but the spirit which he gave up was with the spirits which were detained in prison, or in hell, and preached to them, as the place in St. Peter testifieth. Dr. Pearson on the fifth article of the creed, writes thus: “There is nothing which the Fathers agree in more, than as to a local and real descent of the soul of Christ into the infernal parts, unto the habitation of the souls departed…This was the general opinion of the Church, as may appear by the testimonies of those ancient writers, who lived successively and wrote in several ages, and delivered this exposition in such express terms as are not capable of any other interpretation.” Thus Dr. Pearson. He cites the Fathers. See the edition, in the year 1683, p. 237. (Witham) — Prison. See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. (Challoner) — St. Augustine, in his 99th epistle, confesses that his text is replete with difficulties. This he declares is clear, beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ descended in soul after his death into the regions below, and concludes with these words: Quis ergo nisi infidelis negaverit fuisse apud inferos Christum? In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation.
The Fathers then, durring the persecutions recognizing that we are all members of the body of Christ, and realizing as such we can share in his redemptive suffering, would then when they were about to be martyered offer to write notes offering up their sufferings for the remission of the temporal punishments of the sins of other Christians.
 
Think of it this way. Let’s say I’m driving down the road, decide to go over the speed limit, and so transgress the law. What happens? I get caught by the cops. They issue a fine. That’s like God’s justice demanding a certain amount of recompense for our sins. We can work this off on earth by prayers and good works, which would be like paying the fine.

Let’s say I can’t or won’t pay the fine in full, what happens then is that I will get sentenced to a short spell in jail - 30 days or something. That’s like us going through purgatory to work off those punishments that we haven’t attended to on earth.

Note that I can get out of jail at any time during those 30 days by paying the fine, of course. Justice demands the one or the other, but not both, and allows me to swap. But as I said I either can’t or won’t pay the money - that’s like souls in purgatory, who cannot gain indulgences for themselves and must simply ‘grin and bear’ their purgation.

Let’s say I’ve got a nice friend who feels sorry for me and wants to help. He or she fronts up to the judge and says ‘look, I’ve got some money set aside, I’d like to pay the fine on Lily’s behalf, please let me do so and let her out of jail’. That’s something that happens very frequently - people have fines or bail money put up for them by someone else, and are released from custody because of the generosity of others.

That’s exactly what God does! The indulgences we earn on behalf of the souls in purgatory are simply us paying their fine to get them out of custody earlier. Does the judge care that the friend is paying the fine instead of the person forking out their own money? Of course not, justice demands that that fine be paid, it does not necessarily demand that it MUST be money the person themselves earned.

If it were otherwise how could Jesus pay even part of the price for our sins, as He did by His death on the Cross? If no substitution is allowed? Of course if He did so, so can we (although affecting a person’s time in purgatory isn’t a hill of beans compared to His saving work, of course).
that was wonderful…

so can we pray and offer sufferings for the living also? i thnk we can but have never heard the Church’s official teaching on tht cuz Indulg are usually for the deceased people…
 
Please wake up and study your bible. You cannot pay for your own wrongs. No one else can pay for them neither. That is why Jesus had to die for you, to pay the sin debt in full. This was a teaching of the CC to scare people into thinking if they gave money then their love one would be left out of purgatory. It is a false teaching. This is what Martin Luther 99 thesis was all about. Condemning this false teaching.
Code:
Note
After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.
Job 42:7-8
 
The Fathers then, durring the persecutions recognizing that we are all members of the body of Christ, and realizing as such we can share in his redemptive suffering, would then when they were about to be martyered offer to write notes offering up their sufferings for the remission of the temporal punishments of the sins of other Christians.
Ah… I see. So would that mean that our redemptive suffering for them is a type of application of grace which is derived from our sacrifice?
 
Ah… I see. So would that mean that our redemptive suffering for them is a type of application of grace which is derived from our sacrifice?
At least to this lay believers best understanding, yes I believe this is quite an accurate understanding.
 
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